MicroStars?

[Snail Freak]

I saw in different places online, like aquabid, there are 'micro' brittle stars. They say they dont get big, is that true? I'd like to have some to lower the bio-load in a future seahorse tank. But i know the big ones can be slightly dangerous for younger ones (not fry, but still young horses). The fry will have there own tank, but if i put any young ones in the main tank with a big brittle i'm afraid the star will have a really good lunch...

also, would a couple red sea stars be a possible addition to a 50-55 gallon seahorse tank? i don't have the tank yet, but thats about the size i'm gonna get. just wondering cause there kinda cool, and may look good in there, but i don't want them to be the only things looking good (as in verything else is eaten or something). there will b seagrass also and don't want that to be eaten.

[Phurst]

These guys?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/pearsonhurst/HPIM3051.jpg

They get to about the size of a quarter, and are totaly reef safe. I can't imagine they'd be a problem in a seahorse tank, but I've never kept them, so I can't say for sure. They're detritivores, and do a bang up job keeping my fuge clean. I have loads of them if you want a few. They reproduce readily.

[Seahorsedreams]

Yup, we have them everywhere and they are very horse safe.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y248/seahorsedreams/small%20tank%20stuff/brittlestar3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y248/seahorsedreams/small%20tank%20stuff/brittlestar.jpg

I don't know what a red sea star is,,,,,,

[Rob]

yep, they are common, safe and actually good to have..
they are known to breed readily in tanks are are welcome by most.

there is more info on them over at Project DIBS (http://www.projectdibs.com/)
if you look here:
Project DIBS Forums - DIBSSpeciesPrices (http://www.projectdibs.com/forums/misc.php?do=page&template=DIBSSpeciesPrices)
in about the middle you will find pictures and links to more info..

i also asked Brian to jump in and add any info that we missed. he is the founder of Project DIBS, one of our resident invert experts, and an all around good guy.. ;)

[BrianPlankis]

yep, they are common, safe and actually good to have..
they are known to breed readily in tanks are are welcome by most.


I would consider them "almost" reef safe. I think it is kind of funny that little to no studies, or even observations, have been done on most animals, especially invertebrates, in the hobby and everyone wants to call them reef safe :) Not going after you Rob, just commentary ;)

The pictures posted above by Seahorsedreams are fabulous and are probably the same species we call Ophiactidae sp #3 (Oph #3) over at DIBS. But there are quite a few species of mini-brittles in the hobby and their diet and behavior may be quite different, we don't really know yet.

We have only done limited testing on the diet of Oph #3, but if seahorsedreams says they are seahorse safe I would say go for it.

The only thing alive we have seen them try to eat is planktonic snail larvae, which are MUCH smaller than seashorse fry even, so I would say they are safe for seahorses. It was really quite comical to see the stars hanging on to the glass with three legs and wildly flailing their other three legs in the water trying to capture the snail larvae. The two I watched never captured any of the larvae, but it doesn't mean they can't. I wish I had videotaped it now.

Anyway, They are quite good at cleaning up excess food and seem good at grabbing flake food floating by them, I enjoy them in my tank and my snails reproduce quite readily, so if they are having any impact on the population it is minimal.

As far as "red sea stars", I would need a picture or at last a scientific name to try to help you. But generally almost all sea stars, with the exception of many brittle and serpent stars, do not do well in captivity, eventually die of starvation and are better left in the ocean.

There are some exceptions to this, but without a picture or reliable ID I cannot help you.

Brian

[Rob]

thanks brian, and of course no offense taken.. :)

but i would like to ask..
you state you would consider them "almost" reef safe.
is that because of data indicated some species are a potential risk and we dont have a confirmed ID here, or is it simply because there are unknowns and we just cant say for sure?

[BrianPlankis]

thanks brian, and of course no offense taken.. :)

but i would like to ask..
you state you would consider them "almost" reef safe.
is that because of data indicated some species are a potential risk and we dont have a confirmed ID here, or is it simply because there are unknowns and we just cant say for sure?

Well, the mini-stars flailing their arms trying to capture snail larvae, to me, means they are not completely reef safe because they are actively trying to eat another living animal in my tank.

Is Oph #3 fish safe? Almost certainly. Coral safe? Almost certainly. Mobile invertebrate/fry/larvae safe? Unknown, but my observations say they probably aren't safe for some species of planktonic snail larvae.

And this is only talking about Oph #3, and that isn't even a confirmed ID, and also the original poster doesn't say what species of mini-brittle. Project DIBS has found 4 different species so far and there are certainly MANY more out there already in people's tanks. Until they are ID'd correctly and the literature reviewed, or at least observations shared, we don't know what they eat.

I'm probably being too critical here, but also trying to point out people need to think about their purchases and not just say "all mini brittles are safe" because we don't know. I have all four species of mini-brittles from Project DIBS in my tank and while they don't like each other, they don't appear to attack any corals, fish or larger snails in my tank. One of them, Oph #1, grows large enough (about 4" arm tip to arm tip maximum size) that it could be a potential threat to baby seahorse fry, but we simply don't know its diet yet beyond that it will consume flake food and sinking pellets.

This is why at least seeing a picture of the mini-brittles and at least attempting an ID before purchase is important.

Brian

[Rob]

brian, totally understand that there are unknowns with this specific case.. your right, we are not sure what species Snail Freak is referring to.

i'd like to speak a bit more generic though... if you are saying its not reef safe because it eats snail larvae, wouldn't that make 99% of the inhabitants in our tank non reef safe, leaving stuff like algaes as the only thing thats reef safe? i understand it not indicative to snail breeding, but i think saying it's not reef safe based on that fact is a bit too aggressive. and i agree there are probably other unknown.. but i would hate to have someone read this thread and come away with mini brittle stars are not safe because they eat snails.... (i know thats not exactly what you said, but its an easy mis-interpretation)

[saxman]

One of them, Oph #1, grows large enough (about 4" arm tip to arm tip maximum size) that it could be a potential threat to baby seahorse fry, but we simply don't know its diet yet beyond that it will consume flake food and sinking pellets.
Brian

interesting...i've never run across this species in all my years of SW-keeping. as for SH fry, the correct thing to do (except in the case of zots) is to remove them to a barebottom nursery tank. that being said, i'd say a 4" brittle could be a problem with juvies, again, depending on how well fed it is.

[Reefbaby]

awesome photos Renee!!

[BrianPlankis]

brian, totally understand that there are unknowns with this specific case.. your right, we are not sure what species Snail Freak is referring to.

i'd like to speak a bit more generic though... if you are saying its not reef safe because it eats snail larvae, wouldn't that make 99% of the inhabitants in our tank non reef safe, leaving stuff like algaes as the only thing thats reef safe? i understand it not indicative to snail breeding, but i think saying it's not reef safe based on that fact is a bit too aggressive. and i agree there are probably other unknown.. but i would hate to have someone read this thread and come away with mini brittle stars are not safe because they eat snails.... (i know thats not exactly what you said, but its an easy mis-interpretation)

Ah, good to debate you again Rob, we have both been too busy! :D

In the case of Oph #3, I think we could generalize and say it is reef safe (not many people will miss a few snail larvae here and there). I have them in my tank and have had no ill effects.

But I think generalizations can be harmful in many situations in this hobby. Until we have pictures or at least have the original poster confirm the mini-brittles he was talking about, I feel it isn't a good idea to generalize an answer.

I am not an expert on the diet of mini-brittles, I can only go off the observations my Breeders have made on 4 species of them and a few papers I've read in the literature. Generally their diet does not include fish or coral, so if your definition of "reef safe" is that an organism won't eat or harm your fish and corals, then most mini-brittles would be considered reef safe.

But throw animals from all over the world into our little glass boxes and it becomes difficult to determine who will eat who and whom is safe from whom :D

Brian

[Seahorsedreams]

But I think generalizations can be harmful in many situations in this hobby. Until we have pictures or at least have the original poster confirm the mini-brittles he was talking about, I feel it isn't a good idea to generalize an answer.

I went to aquabid to check the stars out before I answered. They are the ones that are commonly found. I have lots of them. All the online sites I have seen sell microstars are indeed selling the same ones.... as far as we are able to identify them somewhat. I can't say all the tiny ones are the same but they are all listed as being beneficial scavengers by peeps like Fenner, Calfo and Shimek.

We have to make generalizations in this hobby. Most people have to take many things at face value only. Like things of this general appearance have these general characteristics. There are so many different bristleworms in our tanks but we have to lump some them in the one because we can't possibly identify each and every one of them individually. In the scheme of things, as far as the ordinary hobbyist is concerned, they are reef safe. If you see something listed as a micro brittle or micro star or whatever and it looks like the above pics... it is safe to assume they are safe. Common names are necessary (and easier to prounounce :-), although they can lead to a lot of confusion at times. But we have to commonly lump them because we all don't have the means and expertise to identify scientifically. Everything in our tanks eat something else.... things like eating snail eggs is incoinseqential IMO when we are talking about the regular home hobbyist.

[Cyclura]

where can i get some of these mini-stars? i was trying to stay away from the big serphent and brittle stars.

[CarmieJo]

I got mine through ProjectDIBS (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/www.projectdibs.com) but at this time they are only available to people who are interested in breeding them.

[Seahorsedreams]

where can i get some of these mini-stars? i was trying to stay away from the big serphent and brittle stars.

Aquabid has them. Lemme ask my seahorse friends where they've been getting them. For us they were hitchhikers and now there is a million of them but they are hard to "harvest" because they are in the rocks for the most part and if you pull on them you tend to bust a leg.

[Phurst]

They're in my macro, I can hook you up.

[Seahorsedreams]

Take him up on it Adam and remember to share with a fellow reefer when you population gets up there.

[Phurst]

Take him up on it Adam and remember to share with a fellow reefer when you population gets up there.

Just Pm me your shipping info and I'll send a few your way. You'll have a ton before you know it.

Local reefers have really taken care of me and I aim to repay the favor to anyone who wants needs it...

[ver655351]

Where would I be able to get some of those? They look pretty cool

[Cyclura]

When my colony gets up in numbers, you can have some of mine.

[saxman]

if you're in good with your local LFS, and they have a bunch, i bet they'd give you a few...lots of times, they just need to lift up a rock, and there they are.

[Seahorsedreams]

We need to start a hitchhiker trading group.

[Phurst]

That's not a bad idea.

I've got loads of stars, and would love to trade for some other stuff. Otherwise, next day air service gets a little pricey for me to just send them out willy-nilly.

[ver655351]

Thank you all for your help

[Rob]

We need to start a hitchhiker trading group.
Project DIBS...

the whole project is about breeding and spreading captive breed invertebrates.. :)

[Seahorsedreams]

actually I just signed up over there yesterday. I need to go again and figure out what it's all about. It sounds like it would be right up my alley.

[CarmieJo]

A lot of us are members there too. Its a more scholarly site with tons of information.

[Snail Freak]

thanks brian for the info. the red sea stars, i don't know what they are. everyone just calls them red starfish on ebay, haha. here is a link

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-RED-STARFISH-SOFT-CORAL-LIVE-CORAL-SAFE_W0QQitemZ180107095916QQihZ008QQcategoryZ66795 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


i'd like everyone also to check out a thread i'm gonna post in a minute about research and stuff in the general section.



and i might take someone up on there offers of little stars. but i have to talk to my parents first...

[BrianPlankis]

I'm afraid I can't help with an ID on that sea star, I'm unfamiliar with that one. Maybe Ophiura or someone else here will see this or you can try Dr Shimek on MD.

Brian