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astchiefy
01-29-2007, 03:26 AM
The water which is used to creat make up and change water has been my long debate with several other reef keepers. It is is a common arguement that there have been man succesful aquarium keepers whom have had reefs and tropical tanks do very well for very long without the usage of RO and specialized water treatments. Some even say that is is a love for gadets that has spurred this new phenomenon. I have kep fresh water tanks and saltwater tanks for several decades without the use of RO unit. While there are problems depending on the source of the water you use as well as the mineral content i have not had the sever issues that some claim are solely due to clorine and other items. I know many that state it is a grasp at straws to explain other tank short comings. I think this is a real interesting debate that I'm sure many many newbies to reef tank keeping get stomped on all the time and the perfect topic for the show..

Astchiefy
Dave

Rob
01-29-2007, 10:50 AM
Dave, you have some very valid points
the short version of my advice is get an RO/DI unit
for under $150 you can get one and you just dont have to worry about it.
the long version is, if you read your annual water reports, and have an idea of whats in your water, and know its not going to be problematic go for it.

the point you make is very accurate. its not "tap water" thats the problem, its whats in "tap water" thats the problem. and yes, some people have really good tap water, but unfortunately many people dont.

the reality (IMO) is unless you have a neighbor that has been very successful using tap water, you really have to do a lot of research and also a lot of trial and error to figure out if it will be ok.. many people find it easier to just spent the $150 and get an RO/DI and never worry about it, or get it from a local store

CarmieJo
01-29-2007, 06:42 PM
Tap water tastes bad and I will only drink it under duress. If I can't stand to drink it why would my fish want to live in it?

astchiefy
01-31-2007, 02:14 AM
I have found that in my many years using tap water for different type of tanks that is that tap gets a bad rap in many cases. The source of the problem can be the plumbing from which the water is travelled or that I've found people that use part cold and mix it with warm water. That of course means that their water is coming out of a boiler system of some kind. These units not only carry heavy metal scaling but also any other impurities that end up there from the pipes.

Speaking for those of us that pay great water bills here in New York. Once you become smarter about treating the water and the maintenance of the tank you 'd be surprised how well your results are. I collegeue of mine swore that since he was buy that bottled reef water that he did not have to change water as much. THe usual horror story "Tank Crash""Murder, Death Kill" "-(
My rules of thumb are watch your tank, watch your fish/ corals and keep testing regardless of the water source.
I've tried RO water units which waste a lot of water and give people a false sense of security. However I would not knock them. Rule...Watch the tank, Fish Coral and be mindful of the living Force.

iglowce
01-31-2007, 02:25 AM
i think if u can avoid any problem u should. unless u do an extensive chemical analysis of ur tap water and know for sure its always like that, then use it. but again its just my own opinion =]

JustDavidP
01-31-2007, 10:54 AM
Well... I just LOVE my RO/DI...

In the recent past, our (Massachusetts) water supply has been reported to harbor blooms of fresh water crustaceans (much like a fresh water copepod) that die in the water and cause all kinds o' nasty water issues.

We've switched over from Chlorine to Chloramine (a combination of chlorine and ammonia) *shudder... my fish give me enough of that!*.

Flouride was added, removed, added again (1.0 ppm at this time).

There are historic "Dissolved Iron" issues in Massachusetts waterways too. Oh... and the ph has been steady for a while now at 9.6 :(

From the Massachusetts Water Resource Authority Website:

Water containing chloramines is no different than chlorinated water for most normal uses and is perfectly safe to drink-- the digestive system neutralizes the chloramines before they can be absorbed into the bloodstream.

The presence of chloramines and higher pH levels, however, could harm fish and other aquatic animals. Because chloramine easily passes through fish gills, special measures must be taken before using chloraminated water in fish tanks or ponds. We urge you to review these changes, test the water in your aquarium or fish pond regularly and take appropriate action.
Chloramines must be removed from water before it is used in aquariums or fish ponds. Chloramines do not effectively dissipate in the air and are not efficiently removed by boiling or aerating the water.

When the "authority" itself says that this stuff is NOT good for my thousands of dollars of investment, I take heed ;)

Here's a report for my December 2006 water quality. I sometimes fear showering in it myself ;)

http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/2006data/012007wq.pdf

Oh.. did I mention that I love my RO/DI?

Dave

astchiefy
02-02-2007, 01:14 AM
That's the problem with Massachussets water the harbor has been exposed to toxic contaminent for years and the envirmental department has been trying to address that issue. You should pay a visit to the Mistic Aquarium in Connecticut. They talk about that issue a lot. They also use local water source which the use in cunjunction with extremely large filtration systems. The bay clam population in the lower harbor has been so decimated that the fishing fleets have seen an immediate effect on the fishing and shellfish populations

Lucky me NY water has been tested to have very low concentrations of metal although the chlorine does have to be filtered. Do youguys remember how yougot by before the theory of RO units was thought up.

I remember:-) Those were the days of metal framed tanks and Supreme hang on filters. It is good to have so many opinions. You'd be surprised what can be accomplished when you study the environment and eco system in our local area. The NY Aquarium also

JustDavidP
02-02-2007, 10:28 AM
That's the problem with Massachussets water the harbor has been exposed to toxic contaminent for years and the envirmental department has been trying to address that issue. You should pay a visit to the Mistic Aquarium in Connecticut. They talk about that issue a lot. They also use local water source which the use in cunjunction with extremely large filtration systems. The bay clam population in the lower harbor has been so decimated that the fishing fleets have seen an immediate effect on the fishing and shellfish populations

While I agree that Boston Harbor has its "issues", it has come a long way since I was a kid, playing on the islands, amongst trash. Recent surveys find that the aquatic life there is rebounding beyond expectation. I'm quite pleased.

All that aside, the harbor itself, has nothing to do with the the fresh water supply to my home :) However, I do collect natural salt water (NSW) from the Cape and Islands, south of the big ol' Massachusetts hook. The water there is substantially cleaner, as a result of Gulf Stream activities and the proximity to the open North Atlantic.


Lucky me NY water has been tested to have very low concentrations of metal although the chlorine does have to be filtered. Do youguys remember how yougot by before the theory of RO units was thought up.

Yep, the various conditioners and dechlorinators. However, chloramine is a different beast.


Those were the days of metal framed tanks and Supreme hang on filters. I still have one of those tanks.. a 20G...with a slate bottom :) Freshie tank... I just can't let go of nostalgia :)

Dave

astchiefy
02-04-2007, 03:22 PM
Whether using RO or tap they should both be treated befor addition to the tank. That is another highly seen problem I've heard. People take the RO water which is very devoid of nutrients and trace additives and add it straight into the tank. I havr to admit being guilty of that for many years befor I started testing the tap water. I think part of my curiousity was spurred when I started testing the water from LPS. While acclimating corals I always test the water they come in to note the differences in PH, Calcium and phosphate. I noticed large differences in the water from two LPS's within a few blocks of each other. To my surprise the better quality water came from a place that used tap water but treated it in home made systems which were built in the store. The other used tap water purifiers and a RO unit but added different trace elements. I never thought to ask about it before but now highly recommend that you ask what trace additives and treatments are added to store water before you transfer any of the creatures to your home tank. The change results on tank shock(Not PH shock or Nitrite levels)

Rob
02-04-2007, 10:08 PM
im not sure i get what you are referring to here astchiefy

1.) you state that better water comes from those LFS that use tap water but treated it, what did they treat it with, how did they treat it.

2.) the next thing i have to ask is to define "better" you say you determines them better by measuring hobby important elements PH, PO4, Ca, etc. What about everything else that is in tap water that we cant test for, things line fluoride, chlorine, chloramine iron, copper, arsenic, bacteria, the list goes on and on. more than 99% of which is removed by a properly running RO/DI system.

3.) you state that all water tap or RO should be "treated". Please define how you treat RO water and Tap water to make them suitable for a tank, other than adding a quality salt, which doesn't apply to make up water. of course de-chlorinating and proper measured trace elements aside from this since de-chlorinating is assumed in this situation, and trace elements are added with salt or as part of tank maintenance and are irrelevant of the water source. (as in you simply accommodate for more or less)

please don't take this personal, its just we have a lot of people here including myself that really may not understand what you are referring to, i'm simply looking to get us all on the same level.. :)

RobboT
02-05-2007, 11:13 PM
All that aside, the harbor itself, has nothing to do with the the fresh water supply to my home :)
I kinda wish the water did come from the harbor. Then it would have been RO'd before it got here and even though they'd have added chloramine and stuff back in the source would be alot closer and there'd be alot less than what 70+ miles of water piping for stuff to grow in?

Also, I think the BRS president uses filtered rainwater he collects in drums connected to the downspouts from his roof. Im serious about that.

JustDavidP
02-06-2007, 01:26 PM
Also, I think the BRS president uses filtered rainwater he collects in drums connected to the downspouts from his roof. Im serious about that.

You would have to filter.. I've tried using both rain water and snow. Both are very high on the TDS meter.

D