I didn't want to hijack a thread of someone trying to get help for a sick fish. But I hoped to open a discussion on the lost art of quarantining.

I'm still always surprised when a person with an absolutely stunning large tank says something along the lines of... "Look at the beautiful Emperor Angel I bought today"... and sure as... rain, there is it swimming around in the 240 gallon tank. This person evidently has had great sucess in the hobby, but then still persists to over look a very basic practice. Even with the risk of wiping out every fish in your tank.

Come on, those of you that don't QT, talk to me about why you don't. I really want to know.

this is going to be a VERY interesting thread, Renee !!

I think that my thread already got pretty hi-jacked :P

I'm interested in hearing what Rob has to say. I remember him saying (in an early podcast I think) about how he never set up any QT for his first tank. Seems strange to me...

I use to just pop new fish in the display tank.

i honestly think it's a matter of luck + denial.

when i had a FO tank, and even in my reef, i'd acclimate and pop the newby in. ESPECIALLY if it was a specimen i'd been observing at the LFS for a awhile (i tried to make it a point to do this when possible). of course, this all works till that ONE fish gets sick (in this case, a yellow tang) and trashes your tank.

before i had the reef, if a fish got sick, i'd simply copper the tank...on'ce i got the reef, well...you all know how tuff it is to de-ich a tank.

i really began appreciating the whole QT thing as i began learning about seahorses and seeing lots of peeps being bitten in the booty for various reasons, all of which QT could have prevented.

i also learned that you don't have to have a QT running 24/7 to be able to accomplish a decent QT. the tank in question just isn't allowed to cycle...ever. yeah, it takes a bit more work in terms of WC's, but if you have to treat the fish, the biosystem is trashed anyhow.

i've literally been around tanx all my life (mostly FW), and back in the "old days", we're talking almost 50 years ago, fishkeeping was in the toddler, if not still in its infancy, and the rule was "float the bag, dump 'em in".

just thought i'd weigh in...

I like many never used to qt until I had a problem. Now all fish get 4 weeks minimum in my qt tank.
I do always keep the tank up and have a couple of shrimp in there (which I would remove if I needed to medicate or hypo or anything). They as well as several pieces of lr are there for the biological filtration since I do not have a skimmer for the tank.
When I tried adding fish to an uncycled QT I had horrible cycle problems that way stressed the fish to the point that I actually gave up trying qt and put them in the reef prematurely. I was doing water changes on the qt twice a day at one point and could still not keep the amonia anywhere near acceptible. Now that the tank stays up, I just do regular water changes and maintenance when I do the reef and it is ready whenever I want to add a fish or seahorse.
Just my 2c.

my lfs qt's for me. He gets in a shipment usually pretty small, and he puts them in his qt tank for about 2 weeks is the estimate I believe he gave me.

mine, well in the past when setting up my fist tank i did not quarantine.
all off the fish i had (before the disaster) i had for a long time, so no new fish.

in my recent disaster i lost most of my fish, so when i recently got a new one there wasn't much for me to threaten, but this new fish is a prized fish for me, and future fish if any will be QT'ed in a 20GL tank that are used as clown fish grow our tanks.

should you QT, yes. not QT'ing is a gamble. some people a special relationship with there LFS and the ability to increase your odds in this gamble, but a LFS does not individually QT all fish, its impractical, they go into QT with other fish, then into community tanks, which are often all sharing the same water.
so there is some value in a trusted LFS, but it doesn't mean your safe.. ;)

short answer... YES you need to QT

Most of my stuff is small and received but respected/trusted people. I have my two clowns which i closing looked at but did not QT. One of my projects is to make a QT tank inside of my new sump i will be making. Then i will QT everything i get. Right now i QT all my corals for a period of time so i can inspect the rocks and the corals. But i will truely be working on a QT tank within my sump so i can leave stuff in there for about a week or two. But i have to make my new sump first lol :)

\ But i will truely be working on a QT tank within my sump so i can leave stuff in there for about a week or two.

The QT will be sharing the same water as the display?

I QT fish now, but would like to QT everything....
What would be the minimum equipment required for a quarantine tank used for stocking a reef tank? I understand that for fish the lighting is not a big deal, but when it comes to coral and clams what can you get away with for the QT period without doing harm? I am sure that there is probably no consensus but is there a problem in using products such as this (Purigen) (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Purigen.html) for keeping ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in check?

no actually i will have a 2 drain system one to drain the QT and one to fill it with system water. That way it will stay the same temp and i can aclimate the corals/fish easier too. Once the holidays are over i plan on drawing up the plans and showing everyone. :)

Here is why I have never used a QT:

As far as fish, they all come from one place, a trusted widely recommended LFS. Jenn won't sell a fish that is sick or doesn't eat or if she hasn't had it that long.

Also it's not that often that I purchase a fish, so it becomes a numbers game at that point.

I am a smart reefer. I considered EVERYTHING before buying a fish.

Have I needed to Q a fish in my 4 years in the hobby? No

Ok that's fish, now lets talk corals. Many are familiar with my zoa eating nudibranch fun. Once I realized the problem, I come up with an immediate solution.

Another reason I don't have a QT is because I have 24 hour access to one if needed- location is everything. If I lived in the middle of no where and had no access to local reefers, I'd feel very different.

Having zoa eating nudi's was a pain, but I didn't lose anything other than my time invested to setup the QT and doing the FW dips.

On the subject of corals, I have coral insurance on every coral I have that is fraggable. My first thought when I get a coral is "when can I frag it and have backup insurance?" I've never had a tank crash, but I always plan to have one tomorrow.

I believe many hobbyists don't have them do to expense and space. Having another full setup with lights, filtration, pumps, etc adds up. Many people can barely afford their tank much less a QT.

Let me make it clear that QT's are great and prolly needed in most reef situations. While they are very important, they don't take care of every problem. The mandarin still needs enuff pods to eat, the tang needs a stress free environment not harassed 24/7 by other fish, fish that jump need closed in environments, etc etc. And it seems no matter what you do, your tank may crash one day. I've also read posts in which the QT possibly caused death. Was the extra stress on the fish really worth it? Can you really put a tang in a 20L with no natural environment for 4 weeks and not expect it to get sick? I guess I'm up in the air.

If I was setting up a large system with numerous fish, my thoughts may be different.

Also I'm a naturalist in this hobby. Many people throw chemicals in a QT. Unless they are approved by the FDA, they won't be used on my perfectly healthy fish unless it had a life threatening condition. Let nature take its course and allow the cleaner shrimp to do their thing. It's worked for 4 years- why change?

no actually i will have a 2 drain system one to drain the QT and one to fill it with system water. That way it will stay the same temp and i can aclimate the corals/fish easier too.

Very interesting. I'll be curious to see it in action!

I was hanging out at some petland the other day and noticed they had a fairly cheap all-in-one 29 gal nanocube. Would that kind of setup make for a decent QT? Obviously I don't want to spend a whole lot on an entirely new DIY setup, and I don't have the room for it anyway...

Does it make sense to spend the money on a nanocube, or no?

Something like the 12 gal one here... (http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/aquapod.htm)

10 gallon works great over here.... 9.99.

gwen I totally agree with you, I also agree with having a QT but you're right that is another expense most people cant afford.

I think if I mail-ordered livestock, I'd probably set up a quarantine tank. Excepting one mail-order vendor here in the ATL area, they come with unknowns that I don't feel from my LFS and private owners where I can observe their tanks or know something about them as reefkeepers.

A QT tank particularly for fish is not an expensive endeavour and can save all of your reef inhabitants. I too used to not qt my fish and then got hit with ich on a tang from my favorite lfs. He has a great reputation and has always done right by me but it was really just one of those things that can happen to even the best reefer or lfs. One infected fish that has not gone through proper qt is all it takes.
I really can't encourage people enough to have a qt tank set up and ready when stocking your tank. It could just save the rest of your reef by spending just a few dollars on a tank, power head and hob filter. That is really all you need. As said before if you are using it as a fish qt you do not need any special lights or equipment. Just a very simple setup. Personally I have and like a 20g long tank for this purpose but you can certainly have any size you wish.

Lynn, you don't even need all that really. My QT tank honestly consists of a tank an airline and one bleachable plastic coral thingy.

Even cheaper then. Mine seems to be working fine for me so I will leave it, but I also used equipment I had just lying around so it really didn't cost me much if anything. Keeping the price down is likely to encourage people to qt more often so I consider that a good thing. I have hear of many people using pieces of PVC as hiding places as well. Another good cheap option. Just be sure to get the PVC that sinks instead of the one that floats.
I do think it is important however to cycle the qt before adding fish. I almost lost my prized tang due to an amonia spike in an uncycled qt.

I don't cycle.... my Reidi have been in a boring uncycled 10 gallon tank since before the summer.... poor things. Right now I have 3 on the go.

How did you avoid a cycle other than using water from your reef which I assume you did? My first attempt at qt went very badly when the amonia went bezerk. i was doing twice a day water changes of 25% and could stiill not get it within acceptable limits.
Unfortunately I was not able to use reef water since I suspected an infection in my reef and did not want it to spread to the qt tank, but I bought some awesome lr and still had a cycle on the tank that I felt was stressing the fish in the qt.
Perhaps I am just too paranoid, but it was a case of choosing among two bad choices.

so could i maybe go with an ecplise 12 gallon for a qt? ...and if i think my reef water is fine that is what i would use right? and for the bio wheel and carbon...use both?

I would use both but I have been accused of overkill. If you already have them and particularly if the bio-weel has been in your sump I would say it is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. I also like some lr, but if you have to treat the tank then the lr will no longer be suitable for the reef. It is taking a risk but I have a few pieces I decided to leave in the qt and risk it. Again something not necessary. Many use PVC or just about anything else that will give the fish a place to retreat and hide.

GREAT sounds like a plan. when i get my sump going and i get the tank.i will drain some water for the QT and then put the bio wheel on and then open the carbon and put it in when i get a new fish? sound good?

Back in the dark ages of my reefing career I did not use the Internet or belong to a reef club. It did not even cross my mind to QT anything. Other than the sudden loss of a Royal gramma that was never explained, I didn't run into any problems my first 3 years in the hobby.

I then took some time off and entered the hobby again about 2 years ago. I read for months before I started again and setup a small QT tank (8 gallon). At first everything went in the QT, but my corals started to die off in the QT. So I stopped QTing corals, but I then got lovely flatworms from one of my coral additions from a "trusted" source.

So I then developed a procedure for all corals, LR, inverts, added:

1. Corals get a dip immediately after I get them, depending on the type of coral. The dip always contains flatworm exit, but may contain other chemicals or a freshwater dip if it appears safe.

2. Corals stay in the QT for a week while I watch them for signs of pests. I use my trusty 4x magnifying glass to watch them nightly.

All fish are QT'd for 4 weeks, of course I only have two fish and MIGHT add two more later this year, but they will be QT'd for four weeks for sure.

I understand that setting up a QT is an extra expense and hear many people say it is too much money, but then they add an infected fish or coral directly to their main tank and lose hundreds of dollars in fish/corals. They then spend hundreds of dollars replacing what was lost. :whut: A QT can actually help save money!

I think it is work mentioning Steven Pro's article:
An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php)

The main issue for me is that we bought a house that is setup very poorly for fish tanks and I do not have permission to setup a QT tank anywhere else in the house. After two years of being back in the hobby, I am very close to setting up a new QT tank inside my fish tank stand with proper lighting and flow. I will be testing this new QT tank with some coral frags to see if the improved lighting and flow prevents the die-off I had earlier.

I'm really looking forward to our next house where I will have a fish room and can properly setup a larger QT tank (a 29 is a great QT tank size for almost everything but the large fish).

Brian

Wow! I can't believe I missed this thread. Must be the holidays!

Put me in the QT category. I also come from an old school background. In those days, if your fish got sick, you treated the whole tank with copper. Of course, the tank was made up of bleached coral skeletons and crushed coral for the substrate. This would be certain death for corals, inverts, and live rock.

Will using a QT tank guarantee that you will never have a problem? No way. I had a heater die, and my tank temp dropped quite low for a few days. This started an outbreak of ich. I had to remove all the fish into a QT tank, which was an all day project. However, two good things came out of this experience. It was then I decided to go reef (the tank was a 240 FOWLR). And it reminded me that, while not fool-proof, QT is very important.

I believe that all fish are carriers of various diseases. And that stress or rapid changes in environment can cause the fish to succomb to illness. I have no scientific proof to back this up, just my own observations. So why QT if all fish have the potential to get sick? Because the new fish you purchased has just been through some major stress. Depending on the fish, it was plucked from the ocean, spent the better part of the day in a bucket, was put in a holding tank at the exporter, spent a day in a bag being shipped to the importer, was put in a holding tank, spent another day in a bag, was put in a holding tank at the LFS, then was bagged up again when you purchased it. Holy cow! It's amazing any marine fish taken from the wild survive at all.

Setting up a QT tank does more than help protect your current tank. It's a great place to allow a fish to adapt to tank life and new foods without stress and competition from established fish. In the old days I remember over-feeding the tank in hopes of trying to get my new fish to eat. Never again. It also makes observing your new fish much easier.

My current fish QT tank is a 46 bowfront with am Emperor 400 filter, heater, standard 40 watt light, and a couple of fake rocks. Overkill I know. But it was set up with parts I had lying around. It came in real handy when I had the ich outbreak.

I know that many people say that they can't afford to set up a QT tank. I agree with Brian, a QT tank can save you money. Just add up how much you have invested in your current livestock. Now imagine having to replace them. All you need is a 10-20 gallon tank, a heater, a sponge filter or power head. There's no need to cycle a QT tank. Heck, you don't even have to have it set up until you need it. I use water from my main display for water changes. This does two things - it gets your QT fish used to the water it will eventually be moved into, and it forces you to make small water changes in your main tank (using new saltwater for the display tank, of course!)

Do you have to use a QT tank? No. Should you? Yes. Will it help to protect you current livestock? Yes. Will it improve the chances of your new purchase adapting to tank life? Yes. And isn't this what it's all about.

Great thread to bring back to the top...

In setting up "new tanks" I do NOT QT fish. IF they are the only fish, then that display, in itself becomes the QT.

In setting up new tanks, I DO QT coral, live rock, or anything that can harbor an unwelcomed guest. I do this for as long a period of time as I need to get the "warm and fuzzies" (No Renee....not your dwarf fuzzy ;) ) that nothing is lurking inside.

After a display is up, running and healthy, I DO QT anything that comes from ANYWHERE that will be going into said system. It just makes sense.

My QT regimen is nothing more than a few 10 gallon tanks with sponge filters (kept in my sump when not in use), airlines, and heaters.

The water for the QT would come from 1/2 new and 1/2 from the sump of my existing system. The sponge filter brings with it a HOST of bacterium that kick start and aid in biological filtration. Keeping these sponges in my sump when not in use, ensures that the colonies of bacteria survive.

I've set up and used a QT in just minutes before and have had no ill effects.

Dave

Dave -

Question - doesn't moving the sponge filters to the sump to keep the bacteria alive also bring over the various diseases, parasites, and medications as well? Obviously this is working for you, I'm just wondering if this is of any concern.

Good question...but...

My tank, and the sump, are "trusted" (for now). Again, my system is not a reef, but a seahorse tank (lagoonal type system) which means lower temps, and fewer "life forms" than found in a typical reef system. I'm also *knock on driftwood* pest, parasite, trouble free in the existing system.

The idea is to keep any pests, disease etc. from the new stock, whether fish or rock or coral from getting into my "trusted system".

If I had a fish/coal or otherwise in QT that had any "issues", I would treat them there and when all is well, they'd go in the display. At that point, again, if there was an issue, I'd cleanse the tank, heater, sponges etc. and start anew. If the fish/rock/coral was QTd without issues, then the sponge would go back into the sump.

Having been in the hobby for some time now, I have a closet full of heaters, sponge filters, and other widgets. I have them clearly marked to avoid disaster. One of my QT tanks is a left over tank from a fresh water system that was exposed to copper based meds. It is marked in permanent marker as "fish only QT" for that reason alone. I do not use sponge filters in QT tanks if I plan on using copper or any med for that matter.

Dave

Dave, That was very nicely put. I think in 1 post you nailed the entire reason and method for A QT. Hope all who visit this site take the time to read your post.

Donray

I QT fish now, but would like to QT everything....
What would be the minimum equipment required for a quarantine tank used for stocking a reef tank? I understand that for fish the lighting is not a big deal, but when it comes to coral and clams what can you get away with for the QT period without doing harm? I am sure that there is probably no consensus but is there a problem in using products such as Purigen for keeping ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in check?

Jon,

Which "Medford" are you from? Up here in New England.. MA?

In any case, yeah....corals and clams are a different QT case all together. Sure, some corals can go for some time without proper light, but, I personally feel that if you are QTing something, you want the "something" to be in as "suitable" an environment as possible. There is no use in watching a coral to ensure that it does not have "red bugs" for instance, only to limit its photosynthetic ability, therefore stressing it, reducing its own ability to fend off the predator and ultimately aiding in its demise from the possible parasite. Does that rambling make sense?

In any case, for corals and clams, I suggest your QT system have closely matching lighting scheme. This will also help in acclimating it to its ultimate final destination, your display tank.

As far as using other "media" in the QT...yes, I have used Nitrate Sponge Media and other products when QTing.

Dave

I really appreciate y'alls honesty in this thread.

Y'alls? Canadian? Cali Gurl? Or Southern Belle? I can't figure you out :)

Yes, I'm a crazy mix. I leave the u in flavoUr from Canada. I say y'all from living in South Texas for 10 years... although there wasn't too much southern drawl there... mostly spanish. Dood comes from the current Cali living arrangements.

i dont have a QT myself because of limited space and my mom would not let me have another tank in the house.. AT ALL.. WATSOEVER... no discussion, she said. but yeah having another tank means another expense, space and extra on the electrical bill which is already sky high wt MH and the euipments that are running. so yeah its great to have one. its recommended but sometimes its just not possible in some households.

Yes...Medford, Massachusetts. And thanks for responding.

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification. Makes good sense to me.

Great thread - showing once again that there is no single method to achieve success in this hobby of ours. And also why TR is the best place for these kinds of discussions.

Jon,

No worries. Let me know if I run into you at a Boston Reefers Meeting...

Be well,

Dave