Sump/fuge DIY help

[Ron Guiness]

Well hello everyone..

So if you have been folowing my sparatic posts here you know I have been in the process of putting in a DSB in my tank, which BTW has been going well thanks to all of your help. Now I have come to a problem.... tonight my Skilter started leaking like a civ, which left me without any filtration, and it happened after all my LFS were closed. So I put in an extra power head to keep water flow up. Anyway, I would like to ask a few questions on what was supposed to be my next project down the line but was moved up timeframe wise. I need some good DIY sump or sump/fuge plans. Now keep in mind that this is one thing that I have no idea on how to do, I never used them in my fresh water tanks. I have a 55 gal display and I also have a 12 gal tank that I was going to use for a fuge. Tomorrow I am also going to pick up a new skimmer. So if anyone could piece anything together out of this combo, or just point me in the right direction that would be really cool. I need details though because I am not versed on this subject at all. I also wanted to repair and use my hang on Skilter for something also if possible. So if anyone has any ideas please hit me up. Thanks all again

Prost!!

Ron GTuiness

[3vilPuffin]

Listen in part to podcast ep 54 on fuge it has a bunch of stuff that may help you

[JustDavidP]

Ron,

Yes, Episode 54 has some good information about refugia. Check that out. You could easily use the 12 gallon as a refugium.

I would also recommend the use of a sump. The bigger the better. Whatever you can fit under the stand. In my case, I'm actually drilling through the floor and using a rather large sump and refugium in the basement, but not all folks have that option. You can use a standard tank that will fit the space. You could use a rubbermaid container too. Finally, if you are handy, you can purchase acrylic and build your own sump. Depending on the option you choose, I could write a book. Report back when you read up some more and decide which route you are going to take.

If you get the Skilter going again, sell it :) Personally, I've used them and they are a) very poor skimmers and b) very noisey! Otherwise, just use it as a hang on filter, minus the skimmer, and fill it with live rock rubble for a "mini fuge" of sorts. IMHO, set up a real fuge and use the Skilter as a paperweigt (not the opinions of the landlord..but the posting party :) )

Dave

[saxman]

i agree with Dave on the skilter...had one once, good idea, sketchy execution.

i'm a HUGE fan of refugia as well as sumps...then again, we try to keep as much of the "technology" out of our tanx (and out of sight) as possible. as you suspect, just about any tank, bucket or bin can be used. about the most important aspect IMHO would be a good bubble trap before the pump bay.

[JustDavidP]

about the most important aspect IMHO would be a good bubble trap before the pump bay.

Absolutely...even more so in a smallish system with smallish sump. The water just tears through the system and if there aren't any proper baffles or traps of sorts, will cause a micro-bubble snow storm in the display.

D

[JustDavidP]

Lemme dig out some DIY shots of my sump under construction and post here...

D

[Seahorsedreams]

We tried to get away without one in the new Mantis tank... the baffles that is. We had to install them after the fact.... bummer.

[JustDavidP]

Okay... here are the materials/tools:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0042.jpg

Note the all important tool... Refreshments!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0049-1.jpg

Here is the product you use to "glue" the acrylic. Though, in acutality, the acrylic is actually "welded" or melted together with this product called (appropriately) "Weld-On". You use the lighter, watery #4 with a capillary needle type dispenser to get into the tight spaces between the acrylic.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0036.jpg

You need to use blocks, corner braces, and other tools to piece it together:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0039.jpg

[JustDavidP]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0059.jpg

Complete three sides of the box (and bottom) and then baffles, before you close up the final side of the sump. This allows you to get in and make a better bond on the baffles.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0056.jpg

[JustDavidP]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0057.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0058.jpg

[JustDavidP]

Oh..yeah... *pointing up* and you need a friend who is your "Acrylic Guru". This is my buddy Gustavo (Neo on the board) helping me out. He's like...my best friend in the world... and happens to be a reefer too!

[JustDavidP]

My typical plumbing for my sump/fugium creations:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpplum1.jpg

And a finished "Box":

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0064.jpg

[JustDavidP]

I then use a blow torch to melt down the sharp edges and polish out any scratches on the sump.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/2004_0926Image0071.jpg

[JustDavidP]

Leak test.... and then... Install:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/SUMP.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/runnin.jpg

[wwest]

Thanks dave, That actually helped me out a lot. I ordered my applicators and weld-on #4 on Tuesday. You have answered a few of my questions that have been rattling in my head for the past few days.


I'm also wondering how long you have to apply the plexi glass once the glue is placed? Any insight on that? Also do you put the glue on the inside of the corner? Example is if you were welding two peaces of steel together into a 90 degree peace.

[JustDavidP]

You DON'T apply the Weld On first and then put the materials together. You first align the sections and then clamp them together (dry) using the corner clamps, and, in the case of baffles, using blocks and such to prop them off of the bottom. Once the parts are together with the corner clamps, you use the applicator to apply the Weld On in the cracks between the panels. Using these capillary applicators, you will see the Weld On literally get "sucked" into the void between the panels of plexiglass. I first work from the inside of the sump because it is harder to do so when it is "Buttoned up". I then do the outside as well to ensure that I have all surfaces touching. You can really tell quickly by looking. You will see the gaps and the applicator and Weld On won't even "draw" if there is no void to fill.

I then use standard "bar clamps" to keep it together while it cures.

http://www.profhdwr.com/58001pic.jpg

What I do, is overlap the bottom (and top eurobrace) on the sumps to ensure a good bond. Kind of like this _|_ In my own sumps, I don't care if there is a "ridge" around the edge of the base or top. My buddy Neo uses a router to trim the excess bottom and top when the Weld On has cured.

You have SOME time to manipulate the plexiglass when you apply the Weld On. Not a lot, as it will begin to bond quickly, but you can apply pressure, slide the components, and set and such for about 20 seconds before you cause bubbles and other irregularities in the weld.

[wwest]

Sweet Thanks for the info.. very helpful

[JustDavidP]

De nada mi salty amigo! :)

[Ron Guiness]

Thanks for all of the replys. Ya Im going to use the skilter as sort of fuge. But what I was kinda looking for right now is more of the plumbing aspect of it all. I think for now I am going to use a rubbermade container for the sump and I have a 15 gal tank that I want to use for a fuge. Both are going to be placed under my desplay tank. I need to know how to connect both of them up in line under my desplay tank, and what sort of pump will work or if I am going to need more then one pump, or if alot of it is just priming up the pipping. That DIY fuge/sump was really cool btw but since I am in an apartment right now and my access to tools is limitted I am going to just go with basics for now. Thanks again.

Cheers Ron Guiness

[Ron Guiness]

Ok this is my new idea, its a bit different but due to my size restrictions it seems like a good one......you be the judge.

Ok I am thinking about putting 3 containers under my tank, 2 8gal rubbermade for sumps and my 12gal for my fuge. Im not exactly sure how the plumbing will work for this or in which order in line I should place each component ( sump-fuge-sump or sump-sump-fuge or fuge-sump-sump). This will also give me room to add a R.O. water container for top offs. Any ideas on this set up? Pros or cons... all will help.

I am starting to think that I am putting WAY to much thought into this project though, hopefully im not overthinking this and making it more difficult then it really is, but being a Nubie at this it is kinda hard not to.

Anyway thank you everyone, talk to you tomorrow

Cheers!!

Ron Guiness

[JustDavidP]

A 55 Gallon display and stand doesn't give you a TON of room underneath the tank. Can you put a refugium somewhere above the tank? If so, you can simply pump water to it, and let it overflow back into the tank, separate from the sump and such "down under".

I'd just use one container for a sump below. You can install bulkheads and float valves/switches for your auto top off there. You can keep your skimmer there. You may also be able to use Live Rock Rubble and strategically position it so it acts as bubble traps or baffles for that sump.

Dave

[Ron Guiness]

Thanks Justdavidp that really sounds like it would work perfect for me. I have one more question though. Regarding the overflows (fuge to tank and tank to sump) is it necessary for me to buy them or is there a DIY to make overflows without drilling holes into my tanks. Again thanks for the help. This will be the last piece of my sump/fuge puzzle, I will order the needed parts then all will be well with the universe.

Cheers!!!
Ron Guiness

[JustDavidP]

Ron,

You're probably asking the wrong guy. I am totally afraid of overflows and other methods. I'm a reef ready or drilling kind of guy.

Yes, you can use overflow methods, but in a multiple container set up, I'd fear that you'd be setting up for failure.

Most LFS will drill tanks. If you use plastic or acrylic containers, it is very easy to drill and insert bulkheads yourself.

Dave

[3vilPuffin]

hey looking back on that im dissapointed i cant do this diy im only 18... darn... 3 yrs till i can do it legally. unless,

can i sub soda for beer lol

[JustDavidP]

Ben,

YOU SHOULD substitute the Corona for a Pepsi.. David's Rule #21 :)

D

[Astrivian]

Man is this a great thread. I LOVE TR!!

How thick does the plexiglass have to be do you think? The pics you posted looked about 1/2" for like 35 gallons? I think i caught the fever from you here...its off to the hardware store I go :sailing:

:)

[JustDavidP]

How thick? well... how large is the "box"? What are you using it for?

I use 1/4 inch for any box less than 50 gallons. My new seahorse tank will be at least 1/2 inch. The images above are 1/4 inch.

However, you do need to keep in mind the ultimate use of the DIY project. If it is a sump, with low water levels, and small in size, 1/4 is fine. You should use a "eurobrace" construction if you have no baffles or anything else in there to help brace it all together.

If you are making a big sump, with lots of water pressure and flow, then you should increase the thickness.

If you are making "fixed" baffles, glued from the bottom up, that retain pressure (as opposed to floating baffles where water can run under) you should use thicker acrylic or it will bow. This is a recipe for disaster, especially if you are bonding acrylic to glass with silicone.

D

[Astrivian]

Hmm. This is interesting. I was thinking of making a macroalgae garden "display" underneath my big tank (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member-tank-projects/2838-samuels-new-huge-tank.html) . The box would be W 24", H 18" , D" 12". This works out to be 22.4 gallons. The eurobrace is the ledge running across the top of the tank right? If so, i would not mind doing that, it might help with the salt creep a bit and keep my cat out.

The basic idea is for a DSB, about a 10x turnover (so 220 gph), some hermits and snails, and some macroalgae. Just brainstorming here but i was thinking of dividing a section off in the back for Chaetomorpha to do the "dirty work" so to speak, then some nicer macro's in the front display part.

am i making sense? Sorry, this is all still in planing stages. 1/2" is probably safe huh?

Oh, have you ever tried bending the sides by heating up the plastic with a hair dryer or paint striper?

[JustDavidP]

The eurobrace is the ledge running across the top of the tank right? If so, i would not mind doing that, it might help with the salt creep a bit and keep my cat out.

Yes, basically, you make an entire 4 sided box, but on the top, you use a drill and router to cut out the hole, leaving as much "brace" as you feel is needed. Keep in mind that any exaggerated brace will make it harder to get to the side panes for cleaning etc. You should also use a blow torch to polish the edges as they can be sharp and will scratch up your arm as you work in the tank. The torch will smooth down those edges.


he basic idea is for a DSB, about a 10x turnover (so 220 gph), some hermits and snails, and some macroalgae. Just brainstorming here but i was thinking of dividing a section off in the back for Chaetomorpha to do the "dirty work" so to speak, then some nicer macro's in the front display part.

You could do that... you could build a "quazi-overflow" looking section and put a powerhead and hose such that the water enters into this chamber, causing the chaeto to tumble, and then lets the water cascade back into the sump-fugium. You could use a light that covers the entire fuge..or a simple clip on that lights only that chaeto tumbler.


am i making sense? Sorry, this is all still in planing stages. 1/2" is probably safe huh?

You could actually get away with 1/4 since you will be using "chambered construction" and therefore will have something bracing the box together.


Oh, have you ever tried bending the sides by heating up the plastic with a hair dryer or paint striper?

No... though some have said that there are heat strips for doing this same thing. Others use a blow torch. I'm sure that a hair dryer will NOT do it...unless you run it long and hard (probably kill the missus' dryer ;) ) Personally, I've not had a need to do this. However, my buddy Gustavo (Neo) has done things using torches etc. I've heard mixed reviews about the heat strips that others use.

Dave

[NeO]

Hey David, I no so busy today and decide to stop by :D

I like the pics, I think they are about 2 years old?

any way...
You can bend acrylic using many different technics, Heat Strips, blow torch, heat gun , oven, light and etc...
I did use heat strips to bend a 1/4" acrylic, but that took over a hour to warm up the acrylic to the point that I could bend it.
The problem using a blow torch is that the acrylic get to hot to quick and you stress the acrylic so much that it can crack really easy.
Heat gun, work really well, it is a slow heat and does not stress the acrylic that much, but will take some time to get the acrylic to the right temperature.

If you are making something small, you can make a template out of wood and set the oven to like 250F and the acrylic will be ready in about 20 min.

And as far as thickness of the acrylic, the largest sump that I build was a 153g total volume (37x48x20h) with 8" of water running through it and I use 3/8" cast acrylic.
The sump below holds 77g 60x15x20h and is made out of 1/4" acrylic.

http://www.neosreef.com/pics/sump/kenn/IMG_4611.JPG

So for a sump that small 24x12x18h I would 1/4".

Gustavo

[JustDavidP]

Well hello there sir.... Yes, that was when we were building the sump for my 75G. More than two years ago...and between us....about 75 cases of beer ago! :)

When are we finishing my cabinet ;)

Thanks for adding your comments. If you are ever interested, we'd love some more DIY stuff at TR. Don't be a stranger!

D

[NeO]

I would say more then 75 Kegs ago :D

How about if I stop by today for another case o beer and make that picture 75 keg and a case old? :cheers:

I call you later.

BTW. I'm interested I just need to find a way to make my days be longer then 24 hours :)

[JustDavidP]

Understood ... caio for now brother...

[Astrivian]

So i successfully bent a sheet of acrylic 90 degrees using a butane torch and some of the corner clamps! It was really easy although predicting the exact length after the bend is rather difficult. I ordered the glue from RPlastics.com so i should be able to create a pretty cool sump for my new tank.

One last question, i assume you use some aquarium-safe silicone along the inside of the sump, correct?

[NeO]

No, Just the weld-on.
Silicone does not go well with acrylic.

Gustavo

[JustDavidP]

Happy New Year brother....

Started the molding last night...finishing today. It's a bugger doing this with 4 penny nails.

D

[NeO]

:D
stop by on your way home and get the air compressor and the nailer

[keyozoxmfc]

hey david
i have a 33gallon tank i was planning on turning into my sump. i wanted to make is a sump fuge, similar to the design you made. is it going to be hard for me to make the baffles since the tank is already built? and about the plumbing does it make a different if its like the way you showed or if the drain is like in the middle and it tees both ways with ball valves on both sides of the tee...does that make sense...? and finally ..is weld on available at any sort of store? or is my only option getting it online?

[JustDavidP]

First and foremost...if you have a tank, and it is glass, you do NOT want to use acrylic for baffles and you do NOT want to use weld-on. You would want to use glass baffles and aquarium silicone.

Acrylic does not bond with glass using weld-on and acrylic and glass do not bond well with silicone. Use glass baffles on glass with silicone or plexi/acrylic baffles on plexi/acrylic with silicone.

You should not have a problem making the baffles. It won't be "pretty" because you'd have a hard time glueing/bonding the parts (lack of hand room), but you could still do it. I did this and used a thin dowel to help make the bead and bond.

The plumbing is your choice. You could use a T and torque down each side with a ball joint. However, you DO want to make sure that ALL of the overflow from the display is allowed to freefall in some manner. I guess what I mean is if you valved down the flow to both sides and created backpressure, your overflow would be restricted, the pump would still work, and you'd overflow your display.

Your "unrestricted" overflow will match the GPH of the return pump. If you restrict that overflow in any way, you are going to have a disaster.

D

[keyozoxmfc]

ok got it..maybe i would do what you did there and put a ball valve by the refugium justin case for some reason