Ok, apologies in advance. I have not been really thorough in searching this forum and I have not yet listened to the podcasts. I am off to do that as soon as I finish this post.

I am completely new in the world of aquariums. My only experience in the past was a beta in a goldfish bowl. After years of begging my wife, she finally buckled and allowed me to purchase a tank. I got a 55 gallon tank with stand, second hand. The tank came with no lights and no accessories except for a Tetra Second Nature WDF 4000.

My goal with the tank was to have coral, anenomes and a few fish. After talking to a few people at the fish stores, I was quickly slapped with the price tag and passed out. I think I am going to try a community tank with a few fish, mostly dead rock, but a few live rock.

Now for my questions... It took years of pleading to get this tank, and if I spend $400 bucks on a light, my wife will quickly terminate the project. Would a cheap hood light with a 40 watt bulb or two suffice for what I am doing? Or is the rock going to require the 200 to 300 watts I have read about? I was hoping I could get away with spending under $100 for lights.

I cleaned the filter that came with the tank and it works. I have no idea, however, if it is approperate for my tank. By the 4000 designation, am I right to assume its for a 40 gallon tank? Does anyone know this is a good filter?

I am being told that I should run at least one, if not two filters for the tank (at around $60 a pop). If this is true, should I just spend the $200 and go with a wet/dry trickle filter? I am also getting polar suggestions on the use of canister and undergravel filter.

Any help would be appriceated.

Hi gerh,

Where are you in NC? I am near Raleigh. Light is important in a reef tank. For a FOWLR tank you would be OK with a fluorescent light but you will want to upgrade eventually. But, you definitely don't need a MH light to keep LR. :) You could also look for used lights, you could maybe find PC's for a $100.

I don't know what filters they are trying to sell you but I would not buy them at this time. I know that you are probably listening to podcasts as I type but start with some of the earlier ones, they will help you with the basic knowledge. Wet/Dry filters are OK for fish only tanks but there are better ways of filtering your tank. You are on the right track with the LR. And starting with mostly base rock is fine.

I live in Asheville. I hope its not as cold out there as it is here.

So, for a FOWLR, how many watts am I going to need? One bulb or two? And for the moron question of the hour, will a standard shop light ballast power the tank bulbs?

Gerh,
i woudl like to say "welcome" to Talkingreef...

there are SO many thing here, i could talk for hours... oh wait, i have..
and i even recorded all of it. :D

and this exact reason is why i started Talkingreef.

here is my advice to you..
sit back at wait.. set a hard limit, give yourself a delay time, for example, make yourself wait 6 weeks... or 8 weeks, before you buy one thing for this system.

take that time to do as much research as possible.

the think with salt water tanks, both FO or reef, they are loads of fun, and cost loads of money.. they are expensive, thats just the way it is. you can cut costs here and there effectively (this is discussed in one of the podcasts) and you can spread the cost out over time. just make sure you are prepared to commit and follow through on it, thats all.. :)

and on your journey if you have any specific questions, well thats what were here for.. :)

WELCOME ABOARD

sweet, we like noobs. reminds us of an easier time in life when gas was close to half a dollar, movies cost $3 & shouting the dudes a round of drinks cost next to nothing, yep, welcome aboard to the TR purple heart with 5 finger cluster shagan Wagan fan club *breath*
"im a dope":roll:

Wow, you could afford to buy a round of drinks? Last time I ordered a long sland ice tea it cost me $10.

Ok, so I've listened to some podcasts and I am impressed. Let me know if I understand this correctly...

I should just ditch the idea of purchasing a mechanical filter. Instead, just buy enough base rock, live rock, live sand and a skimmer. And this should work as long as I dont have a high fish population?

As far as limits on spending, taking my time is not a problem at all. I was forcasting the purchase of fish 4+ months from now.

As for lighting, the live rock should be fine for now with 2 40 watt bulbs?

My turn, My turn.... WELCOME!!!

I should just ditch the idea of purchasing a mechanical filter. Instead, just buy enough base rock, live rock, live sand and a skimmer. And this should work as long as I dont have a high fish population?

Correct.... and read up on the various skimmers available. Listen to Rob's skimmer podcast(s) and don't buy a Skilter ;)

As far as limits on spending, taking my time is not a problem at all. I was forcasting the purchase of fish 4+ months from now.

By then, if you have the LR and such in place, you should be cycled... and, if you truly research and read in spare time, you should be right on track! Very good and manageable goal!

As for lighting, the live rock should be fine for now with 2 40 watt bulbs?

Yes... I have dead rock and live rock mixed, under a Lights of America (home depot purchase) light system and it is growing coraline on it. You need more intense lighting for anemone and corals and such. Not for fish only and you do not need INTENSE lighting for coraline development on LR.

Again, welcome..and ask away!

Dave

It's about time I took my turn!!!

http://www.theculturedreef.com/welcome.gifto Talkimg Reef Community, gehr!

You'll find this a great group of reefers. The experts have already answered your questions so, no reason for me to muddy the water.

Dick

skimmer - get the best that you can afford under your budget... if you post a budget for your skimmer there'll be people who'll give their opinion on what the best would be for that price...

Saltwater fish only (FO) is not the same as freshwater where you can put tons of fish in there. You're limited in how many you can put in before you have too much biological processes going on with a small water volume.

Also, species like tangs are 'happier' not necessarily based on how many gallons you have but the amount of swimming space. Gobbies like places to hide. So what I'm getting at is that you need to think out what you want to have in there and what it will need.

Patience is key. Add one fish at time and wait a few weeks between additions - allowing the tank to get adjusted to the bioload. If you do intend on having corals in the tank at a later date, try not to overstock with fish as corals are more sensitive to nitrates and ammonia which is not as critical with fish only.

bklynmet,
great way to highlight some important items..
basically, research is important.. :)

There's so much more to advise too...
One thing worth mentioning - saltwater... unless you live by the ocean, you'll have to pay for salt. You can get bags at a time or buckets like most of us. At around $20 a bag, it's a necessary expense. Then you'll need equipment to ensure it's mixed correctly.

With corals, you want to have as uncontaminated a water source as possible so you'll likely need to either buy water from LFS or distilled water from the store or buy an RO filter so you don't have to 'pay' for it - even though you're paying for replacement filters every 6-months to a year (depending on usage.)

It's like a domino effect.. without reading up on it before hand, it'll sneak up on you and cause headaches and possible friction with your wife at the expense of 'another thing for the tank'. So the running cost of upkeeping a saltwater tank should be a consideration.

That being said, getting the equipment is the biggest expense. Even those of us who have equipment are always looking at the next step (or fix because it's like an addiction.) If you're patient with it, you'll enjoy it more.

There are plenty of projects that you can DIY (do-it-yourself) to help lessen the cost burden - if you're somewhat confident with tools. Such projects include drilling your tank, making your own skimmer or sump, modifying a pump to get more flow out of it, stands, hoods, closed loops, etc.

You may think I just spoke another language with some of the terms I just spewed out. Well, Rob here has done a great job with his podcasts at getting information out and available to everyone looking for it. So take time to listen to them if you can.

Remeber that it's not a race, take an hour or two each day to learn something new and research information. Plan things out and toss your ideas out here on the forums where people will try to help you and work through some issues beforehand. We've all been through the 'nubie' stage.

Great.

So, paycheck day and I spent some money. I got some crushed coral and arag-alive mixed together and put in the bottom and mixed in some salt. While at the LFS, I spoke to him about buying a skimmer and they are still trying to push the wet/dry on me. They say that its best to have the bio media in case there is a tank crash.

That aside, they have the skimmers that are in-sump and hang on. They were going on about me needing an in-sump because the hang on the back will eventually "inject too much oxygen into the tank."

Any comments on this?

gerh,

Every single step along this new path you are on (reefing) will have an effect on the entire system. Until you learn the basics come here and ask before you buy. Even the most basic element such as substrate (sand/gravel). If you had asked beforehand, I and others would have stirred you away from crushed coral (CC) and pointed you to aragonite sand. The reason being that CC is a trap for all kinds of rotting food and feces and a poor place for the finds of critters that eat the stuff to live. This causes a build-up of the junk and leads to high Nitrates a short time down the road. Should you change it??? That's up to you and how far along you are. If you are willing to do the maintenance (vacuuming it out) then you might be okay. Ask questions for the simplest and silliest reasons. We don't mind answering them.

Two lessons to learn now. It's sad to say but ultimately true.

1. Most LFSs are the last/worst place to get advice for a marine aquarium. That may seem like I have an ulterior motive to stir you away from the most logical place to look for advice but, you will eventually learn it's true. You might as well hear it in the beginning so that by the time you realize it, you can say, oh yeah, I heard that on TR first.

They say that its best to have the bio media in case there is a tank crash.If you have a tank crash, the trickle filter may very well contribute to it not help it. Plan on a sump, the bigger the better, and set it up as a sump/refugium if possible. See my tank thread, the link is in my sig line.

They were going on about me needing an in-sump because the hang on the back will eventually "inject too much oxygen into the tank.They are right about going with an in sump model but wrong about the reason. Hang on skimmers are notorious for being totally inadequate for the purpose. By their very design, necessarily small, they just don't work very good. Get a good in the sump model and you will be better off. Find out the brand they are pushing and ask here about it. It's likely that someone will have experience with it.

Oooops, forgot lesson two.

2. The only thing that happens fast in a marine aquarium is disaster! Go slow and ask questions! Oh, yeah, I mentioned that.

If you had asked beforehand, I and others would have stirred you away from crushed coral (CC) and pointed you to aragonite sand. The reason being that CC is a trap for all kinds of rotting food and feces and a poor place for the finds of critters that eat the stuff to live. This causes a build-up of the junk and leads to high Nitrates a short time down the road.


I could have sworn it was here I read that mixing aragonite, crushed coral and certain type of play sand was reccomended. I searched and searched and for the life of me I cannot find it. I have read so many things over the past month, it is quite possible I read it elsewhere or just made it up. :huh:

As far as the sump, I was thinking about just getting a 20 gallon (or so) aquarium tank and using it. I plan on looking up some DIY articles on what to do for a overflow and pump. Over the next month or so, I will be looking at skimmers so I can annoy you all with more questions.

Thank you all for the great help so far.

hi,

my name is nick, I'm 22 and i live in Warren, MI. I actually just started to listen to your podcast 2 days ago and i like it a lot, ( im starting all the way from the beginning, i'm on podcast 20 something i think) I have never had an aquarium before and people are calling me stupid for wanting to go directly to S/W. well i just ignore them. I am planning and researching for a future tank in a year or two!! i cant wait!! i have an issue with space and budget right now so i can just research more!! I wanted to know how my rough plan for a tank sounded and maybe you could tweak it up a little to name some things for me to look into??? sumps and refugiums are out, cause of space and money limitations!!

Heres my rough plan: (primarily peaceful, fish only)

55 gal tank, maybe 60gal
protien skimmer
flourecent lighting
(2) 230gph powerheads
(2) 100-150w heaters
live sand / old castle sand mix
maybe a little live rock, but not a lot

1 or a pair of true percula clowns
some blue chromis
some green chromis

its still in progress!! but i would like to hear some suggestions on livestock / Equipment / trusted brands etc..... basically any and all advice!!!!

Hi Nick and :welcome: to TR.

You will probably have trouble finding the Old Castle aragonite sand, but a TR sponsor, The Cultured Reef (http://www.theculturedreef.com)now has aragonite at a good price. You don't need to spend $$ for LS in a plastic bag, it will become live in very short order from your LR. You should use at least a pound of LR per gallon of water. You can save money by purchasing mostly base rock and just a little LR and the base rock will also be quickly populated with all the little critters you need. This is important because the LR and LS are your primary means of filtration. Check out Marco Rocks (http://marcorocks.com), another TR sponsor, for some really nice rock!

Even for a FO tank I would use more than 2 - 230 gph powerheads. I would consider something like the Korolia 3's which offer a lot of flow, use little electricity and are very reasonably priced. The Cultured Reef also carries these.

thanks for the welcome, this is probably the best forum I've been on!!!! the aragonite sand was what i was planning on, but when you say 1 lb of LR per gal, why would you need that much? wouldn't it still be effective if i had 30-40 lbs? the Korolia 3's power heads are really powerful and a little pricey! i was looking at the maxi-jet 900 or 1200 power heads, i thought that you want to move 10-20 tank volumes per hour, if i used 3 or more of the Korolia 3 PH wouldn't my tank would probably look like a blender / whirlpool? what are some good venturi skimmers i should look into? and should i need any other filtration?

buy an RO filter so you don't have to 'pay' for it - even though you're paying for replacement filters every 6-months to a year (depending on usage.)

This at least shouldn't be to hard to convince budget conscious wife of, after all, RO Filter will produce better quality water for your family to drink, the fact that it is good for your salt tank is just an extra benefit!! :D

First of all Generalsniper 308 - Welcome to TR! You've found the right forum.

I just want to comment on drinking reverse osmosis water - this is very unhealthy. The water coming from a RO or RODI filter system should NOT be used for drinking - at least for any length of time.

thanks for the welcome, this is probably the best forum I've been on!!!! the aragonite sand was what i was planning on, but when you say 1 lb of LR per gal, why would you need that much? wouldn't it still be effective if i had 30-40 lbs? Your LR is your filtration. Without sufficient LR you will not be able to keep your water parameters in check and you will have difficulty keeping your fish alive. You will probably want a protein skimmer but you will not need any other filtration.

the Korolia 3's power heads are really powerful and a little pricey! i was looking at the maxi-jet 900 or 1200 power heads, i thought that you want to move 10-20 tank volumes per hour, if i used 3 or more of the Korolia 3 PH wouldn't my tank would probably look like a blender / whirlpool? Propeller pumps like the Koralias put out a wide stream of water and would not create turbulence in your tank. In my 54 gallon I have 2 Koralia 2's and a 750 gph return pump. In a 55-60 gallon tank you would want a minimum of 550-600 gph so you would need 3 Maxijet 900's (690 gph) to give you the minimum in turnover. Three MJ900 x $20 = $60 + you will probably pay s&h. Or you could buy two Koralia 1's (800gph) at $34 = $68 including s&h. Using the MJ900 and K1 as comparisons the MJ's use 8.5 watts each = 25.5 watts and the K1's use 3.5 watts each for a total of 7 watts. In the end you would have more flow and less energy consumption. I believe that both of these powerheads are suited for 20-30 gallon tanks and are way too small for a 55 gallon tank but I was trying to use a valid comparison.

what are some good venturi skimmers i should look into? and should i need any other filtration? Will you be planning on a HOB skimmer?

okay, thanks, i didn;t realize a few of those points! as a matter of fact i was planning a HOB skimmer! i really wanted to know the names of good trusted models and brands to look for. i also wanted to ask you about tank lighting? what would be an efficient but economical approach to this, would normal flourecent be ok, assuming this would be fo, lr, ls peaceful tank, percula, chromis and other small hardy fish! i haven't really thought of anything else that i could put in the tank like invetrs, or other fish farther down the line that would be compatible???

For a HOB skimmer, the AquaC Remora's seem to get the best reviews.

The CPR BakPak skimmer is also well regarded. Normal output fluorescent lights will be fine for a FO tank but you will never be able to keep photosynthetic corals. And you may not get much coralline growth.

i wasn't really interested in corals, some are very colorful but i just never really gave it much thought to keep them. are those lights of America fixtures good enough for a FO tank, and would that lighting, be good enough for inverts further down the line? is coralline growth really important in FO tanks?

i wasn't really interested in corals, some are very colorful but i just never really gave it much thought to keep them.

Believe me...you're going to get hooked! Once you've got the fish swimming around in your sea, you're going to want it to look more "real". We'll check on you a year from now! :cool:

for right now, i'd rather take it slow and stick with FO and maybe inverts later, rather that dive right in, and have no clue of the basic fundementals, and kill of over half of my tank! maybe some day but not soon

that's very conscientious of you! And a good idea...it's much better to take things slowly and learn along the way.

Having said that - because you just might want to upgrade to corals at some point, it's probably not bad to thing about the best means of providing biological filtration for you tank. It's good for the fish at any rate as well! Live rock, and sufficient amounts of it, will certainly help to break down the ammonia levels that the fish will create. They're nice to look at and study as well...there's all kinds of little creatures that show up at some point!

Well i went to talk to my friend that had the tank for sale for $75. its not bad, but he redid the silicone himself, not as good as the factory, but its ok. it turns out that the tank wasn't a 150 gal his wife wasn't sure of the size, its a 60 gal long tank! i was kind of disappointed when i saw it. but it will probably work still. he had raised Oscars it the tank, and never treated with copper before. is it hard to redo the seals on a tank? if its a lot like caulking a bathroom than i might be able to handle it. its a 60gal long tank
matching wrought iron stand
filter
light/hoods
basically a fw setup!!

is it a ok price???

I think that is a fair price. What kind of filter comes with it?

not sure, its a hang on back filter of some sort. "is it hard to redo the seals on a tank? is it a lot like caulking a bathroom"?

You may or may not use the HOB filter but it never hurts to have one. I think that silicone is a little thicker than tub caulk but the process is about the same. There is a lot of info here GlsTkSilastic (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/glstksilastic.htm) that you will fing helpful.

thanks, do you know anywhere i could probably get a decent used tank for a good deal

I'd try CraigsList, garage sales and eBay (use the search within ___ miles of zip code feature to find local sellers).

i've seen lots of tanks go for decent prices on craigslist.

hello all!
I ended up getting that fish tank for $75! I have removed all the silicone! Today a friend of mine and I just put new silicone into the tank so...... hopefully........ the seals will work good, if not, then its back to square #1!! It looks a million times better!!! I actually wanted to ask about ideas and suggestions about fish and inverts for my tank? All i want is a very colorful and peaceful mixed community tank!! but i don't know the compatibility of any fishes? even then certin species have special exceptions too!

here is what my setup will be when I am finished getting all of my supplies!

60 gal. 48" long
t5 ho fluorescent light hood
deep sand bed at least 5" deep @ least 60 lbs.
5 - 10 lbs. premium live rock & 40 - 55 lbs. of base rock
protein skimmer

my tank wont be up till next year., because of money limitations right now but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead anyway.

I really liked the percula clowns, and the ocellaris clowns, is there a difference in the overall care needs for these two species? or is it the same needs for either fish?

these fish were suggested starter fishes that i liked too!

firefish and/or purple firefish
neon goby
bluestreak cleaner wrasse
either the green or blue-green chromis
royal gramma
yellow tang
flame angelfish
red banded coral shrimp
common cleaner shrimp
choc. chip starfish

im still playing around with ideas so any suggestions would be nice

I believe that perculas are a bit more touchy than ocellaris but both have the same care. The only way you can definitively tell the difference between the 2 is to count the rays in the dorsal fin.

Chocolate chip starfish are not reef safe.

Hi GeneralSpiper !

Grats on the new tank.

Some thoughts on the proposed fish stocking,

firefish and/or purple firefish <--- be careful, these are known "jumpers" and may depart your tank vertically!

bluestreak cleaner wrasse <-- can be hard to feed, i've had personally poor success keeping them alive for long.

Yellow tang <-- pushing it in a 4ft tank but might be ok (I don't want to get in trouble with the tang police!). Make sure you provide her with plenty of open swimming room around your rock. fyi: in my 6 ft , 180g, the rock is well away from all the sides and my yellow tang can get a straight run either around the back, or in the front - it's also pretty open up top above the rocks. Even in a 180 my yellow tang is pretty aggresive to anything new added to the tank as she considers it all, as "her" personal territory!

flame angelfish <-- could nip/munch on some lps, depends what you want to keep down the line.

red banded coral shrimp <--- may eat slow moving fish - if it gets hungry and can catch them!

choc. chip starfish <-- not reef safe as Carmie mentioned already

Warm Regards,

bluestreak cleaner wrasse <-- can be hard to feed, i've had personally poor success keeping them alive for long.

Labroides dimidiatus LOVE Cyclopeeze... I too had issues years back with these cute lil buggers. I've had one now for a couple years and he loves frozen and freeze dried cyclopeeze.

The only bummer... as I mentioned...mine has been with me for 2 years...and they don't have long life spans to begin with :(

Dave

bad news!!
the tank seals didn't hold! I'm so mad right now! I'm starting to regret getting the used tank. i scrapped out the old seals for a whole week just to double check that i got all the old stuff out. washed everything out with vinegar and water, and prepared the glass with a rubbing alcohol wipe down and dried it off before i applied the silicone, i took my time and thought everything looked good let the silicone dry 3 days before i tested tank with 2"-3" of water and found water coming out of everywhere!!!!!!! drained the tank, dried it out 1-2 days and inspected the seals close up and found that the silicone didn't stick to half of the glass. i tried to call around and see if any LFS did tank repair and cant find ANYONE who will! does anyone in the Detroit / Warren, MI area who has done a few tanks and willing to help me out, or know anyone or anyplace that can do it????????

thanx to anyone who replies!!

I'm sorry to hear this. I don't know of any resources for you...but we all will give ya a warm shoulder to lean on.

Most areas have LFS that will do this for you. Keep plowing through the good ol' Yellow Pages.

Dave