Hi everyone! This is my first post on the talking reef forums. I started listening to the podcast in September and finally got through all the episodes last week. I'm now all caught up. Thanks for a great show, Rob.

Okay... on to my question. I've been researching my first tank setup since August. I finally bought my tank this week- a 25G glass tank. From all the info I've gathered I was convinced that a 4-5" DSB was the way to go. Then I went to my lfs yesterday and the shop owner said that DSB is not the best idea, and that it can cause a lot of trouble in the long run.

What do you all think?

I think a DSB is the best way to go. I'm not understanding what they are talking about in the long run. I guess if you have a sand bed that is a few years old and you stir it up then you might be releasing nitrates and other stuff but i dont really see that as an issue in most tanks. when i clean my tank i make sure to clean the sand bed very well.. I would at least have a sand bad 4-5 inches deep. Did they say why it was bad in the long run?

OH Forgive my manners!

Welcome to Talking Reef, Glad to have you aboard :)

Hi wwest. Thanks for your response.

The lfs guy said something about some sort of chemical byproduct in DSB that can cause damage if stirred. (not nitrates... something else).

But... almost everything I've read at various places online has said that DSB is the best thing for a tank. I like what I've read about the more "natural" style of filtration. I'm thinking of doing a DSB with a LR/macro algae fuge and a skimmer.

I believe that there are any number of ways to set up a tank, but this is my first time, so I want to try to do the best I can. My tank is a 24x12x20" glass tank (25G)

By the way... I love these little meta tags that give the definitions of aquarium terms. I wish they had had those on reefcentral when I was just getting started back in August!

Im not sure about the chemical byproduct. But i bet someone will chime in and fill us in. I would have to say the best way to get ideas for setting up a new tank is to check out the http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member-tank-projects/. You can get alot of good ideas. Thats were i got most of mine anyways. :)

Also if i had to make a suggestion about starting a new is get a good skimmer and light. Almost everyone i know replaces the original light and skimmer within the first year or so :) Happy Reefing

I think I seen it somewhere, but why wouldn't you want to use a sandbed deeper than 5 inches, say 8? Wouldn't be more like the ocean sandbed if it is deeper? Shouldn't a deeper sandbed have more area for those anoxic bacteria that eat nitrates?
What I'm getting at is that we do our best to create reef conditions, right? So, wouldn't this include reaching a natural sandbed depth? Wouldn't this be the best thing to do?
By the way, how deep on average are sandbeds in the ocean?

Welcome to TR!

I prefer a BB tank. A DSB does has limits. I think of them as a leakey faucet dripping and we can't pull the plug. We can take out water to keep from flooding ie replace the sand in our tanks to extend the life and by controlling the rate at which a DSB fills up. DSB's will work, however, at some point they require drastic measures to keep them going and their limitations need to be completely understood. The main problem with a DSB is that at some point you have to export all that has been absorbed.

A properly setup DSB will produce detritus and put a heavy demand in the bioload. DSB's are alive. Living breathing elements produce waste, and waste must be removed.

With a BB tank, you are instantly taking out the detritus from your tank. You can feed as much as you want. Rather than letting the sand bed absorb the detritus, your high flow and skimmer takes it right out. You can maintain a higher bioload also. I can also clean up messes and mistakes a lot faster. I don't have to guess what's in the bottom of the tank and wonder if my sand bed is truly ok.

Both systems work, but I prefer BB.

DSB all the way. :showoff:

LOL. I'm laughing to myself here b/c everyone has such passionate opionions about such different approaches.

Gwen - Have you had any noticible problems or challenges with BB?

fat walrus - Why do you like DSB?

Braves11 - From what I've read, using a DSB is based on the idea of more closely replicating a real ocean setting and filtration. 4-5" is what seems to satisfy many aquraists (on the forums) for this purpose. I think 8" sounds like a good idea, but might prove to be unwieldy in an aquarium. In my experience as a surfer/diver/castle builder/beach bum I have found that the ocean's DSB ranges anywhere from a few inches to several feet or even more, depending on where you are.

yep, its a famous battle...
heres the deal, they are both great...
DSB should get periodic small stirs to release excess build up in them. if left alone for long periods (many months) they can start to collect harmful chemicals in there, periodic stirrings of small areas, releases these safely, along with loads of food for your inverts.. :) following this method has been proven to provide a very stable tank for years, with great de-nitrification.

bare bottom need to have the bottoms cleaned frequently to prevent the build up of excess detritus that can cause nitrate problems. because of the lack of a DSB de-nitrification has to be managed using another method, extra mechanical filtration, remote DSB, extra LR, etc..

again, the point is BOTH REQUIRE maintenance, and if that maintenance is not performed, BOT with give you problems

Gwen - Have you had any noticible problems or challenges with BB?




If you run a BB the correct way, then you shouldn't have any problems. You can't run a BB setup the same as you run a DSB tank. The key is to skim wet, have great flow, and get the detritus out of the system. There is no need to find other ways to absorb the nitrates. Your system is always taking them out because of how it's run.

For example, you feed a large amount of food. The food is kicked into the water column by your high powered pumps or tunzes. Your skimmer which is set to skim very wet will take out the waste and food.

Just to throw this out there... you don't see too many nanos with DSB's since you lose so much water volume. I would recommend a SSB if you want the sandbed critters and the sand look.

cinematek,

http://www.theculturedreef.com/welcome.gif to Talking Reef Community.

Then I went to my lfs yesterday and the shop owner said that DSB is not the best idea, and that it can cause a lot of trouble in the long run.

What do you all think?Wow, what a loaded question to start off with. The first comment I'd like to make is, do not go to your LFS for advice. The only exception is, you might be one of the lucky few that has knowledgeable staff at the LFS. About 90% do not! Ask your questions here on the forum.

I'm a DSB advocate of the staunchest kind. I've been using them for 12 years. My longest running DSB was 10 years in a 100 gal system, 75 gal tank and 25 gal sump/refugium. Now I'm running a 135 gal with a 25 gal sump/refugium. The key to a successful DSB over the long run is the way you set it up. There's a link under the picture in my sig that will take you to my tank thread. My system is explained there.

Dick

What great responses - thanks everyone!

Gwen - Can you tell me more about "skimming wet"? Is there an alternative, like "skimming dry"? What is the difference? Is is done by different types of skimmers? Is it done by different settings on one skimmer?

Here's a link to a recent discussion we had on that very subject. Lots of opinions here - Skim wet or dry. (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/general-marine-discussions/2585-wet-vs-dry-skimming.html?highlight=Wet+dry)

Thanks again for all the great input! This forum rocks!

Here's a link to a recent discussion we had on that very subject. Lots of opinions here - Skim wet or dry. (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/general-marine-discussions/2585-wet-vs-dry-skimming.html?highlight=Wet+dry)
and if you look at the very pottom of that page/thread (and all threads) there is a list of similar threads you can reference.. :)

I personally only have one problem with this, a DSB in a 25 gal tank will remove SO much water in comparison to any other substrate option, I am going to side with Gwen here. In my tank I use a 4' DSB (borderline depth) and even that has a pretty large effect on water volume. With a 25g tank I really couldn't make myself endorse an 8" DSB for any reason. I WOULD say BB or a 1-2" SSB would be the way that I would go.

Cinematek, :welcome: to TR.

I have a DSB and like the look and function of it. There are proponents of DSB, SSB and BB and you can successfully maintain a tank with any of the three. The key to success is tank maintenance and proper equipment. For instance, a skimmer is a must have item in a BB tank, by contrast although most people use a skimmer with a DSB it is not a MUST have.

while i dont have the facts to support this, i believe the upper limit of a DSB is about 6 inches, more than that and its reaches a point where its not any more affective

while i dont have the facts to support this, i believe the upper limit of a DSB is about 6 inches, more than that and its reaches a point where its not any more affective

Just to keep this discussion going, I've always thought the more sand you have the longer your DSB will last. More sand means more that it can hold, and therefore would last longer. As far as it being more effective, I would agree that 6" is just as good as 8", but after a certain period of time, the 8" could have the better longevity. Anyone agree with that?

it might, but i think its more in the care of the DSB than the depth..
as in if you have 8" i might be able to "hold" more bad stuff before its spewed into your system, but if maintains and periodically stirred up as noted above, then it really does matter...

its like does it matter if your how much water you can fit into your trash can if you emptied it after every gallon it two? if that makes any sense...lol

just so everyone knows im not 100% DSB, my frag tank is a BB tank.. :) but my display and fuge are both DSB, so i guess i dont really count.. lol

I love the sand bed 'talk'

Would you say that stirring a DSB prolongs the period until the "crash" or will completely prevent a crash?

IMO, it completely prevents it.
this is based on what i have read from others experience who have maintained there DSB.

what are your thoughts on it? if you think its a delay the crash type thing? or not really sure

I think you are only delaying the crash. If you are not replacing good amounts of sand on a continuous basis, then I think you are doomed. Stirrng the sand will not release everything. And plus I think that sand itself goes bad after a certain amount of time. But I'm not so sure what my thoughts are on that. I don't feel the same about LR going bad however. LR has a completely different makeup that has a self cleaning mechanism built in if you will. I can't explain all the biology/chemistry involved since I barely understand it myself. I do think LR can go bad and become full if not maintained properly and methods such as cooking would be necessary in that case.
Back to sand. You can stir all day long, but your critters are still there and still pooping. If you can't release 100% with every stir, which I don't think you can, then how do you get everything out? So I stir my bed in one section and lets say I get 95% out, and then tank life happens like normal, then several months later I clean that same spot, and I get 90% out. It just seems that it would be less and less effective with each cleaning unless I replace sand very regularly. But yet with stiring I sometimes think that the individual sand particle becomes full- what do you think?? hmmmm idk... What is the reason people replace sand if that is not the case?

What is the chemical makeup of the sand particle and does it absorb nitrates too?

ok, a couple things to point out, actual aragonite sand is actually composed of the same thing as "proper LR" that being the remains of corals, or calcium carbonate. its just that sand is pulverizes corals skeletons and the rocks are not.

the Sand not not absorb the nitrates, its simply hoses the bacteria that consume the nitrates and convert them to nitrogen.

does sand go bad? no it doesn't do anything, its doesn't filter anything, its the home of the bacteria that filters. what it does do is disolve, over time the calcium is absorbed into the water, which is why people with older tnaks occasionally have to replenish there DSBs

regarding stirring... if you are are at 100% and you stir to release 95% you are already in trouble, first off it would take a year or two in a normal 50-100gl tank to get to 100% (maybe more). the idea is to stir when you get to say 5% and release what's there, also you are releasing the chemical byproducts, like sulfurs. you are not releasing the fish waste, that is supposed to be processed my your cleanup crew and other fauna in the system, this is expected..

of course you cant measure the amount of what's in your sand bed, but these stirs will release anything bad in small amounts and also release an awesome food source.. :)

your turn.. ;)
but i do ask, what do you consider long term success, if i have a DSB stable for 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 year(s) am i successful with it?

my only goal is to get people to understand both are very good and effective methods, each with there own caveats.

Live sand going bad? :unsure:

Not before global warming. raining

Stirring to release the "bad stuff" - won't it also expose all of the good anaerobic bacteria to oxygen? Once you sitr them up, they die, right? So do they grow back, and how long does that take?

After all this discusion I have to admit that a DSB seems kind of scary for a first time tank. (first time aquarist, too) I'm now considering a SSB - seems like a better place to start and an easier thing to change if all goes wrong.

But... I'm still probably two weeks away from getting LR and starting my cycle. (I still need a tank stand.) So... Let the debate roll on!

A DSB "crash" is not inevitable. A DSB that is ignored for years may crash but, it may not, too. It depends on the fauna in the sand bed and the predators the hobbyist introduces to the system and sand bed. Large sand sifting starfish are one such predator. They are not just sifting the sand to keep it fresh for you. They are dinning on your sand bed fauna critical to keeping the sand bed from crashing. Any fish dependent on Copepods or that just dines on them by chance and/or the worms that are so important to the sand bed's health, will add to the chance of a crash. The sand bed is a living thing and must be viewed as such and maintained as such.

Many of you know I set my LR on top of flat rock which is elevated above the sand bed 1" to allow water flow under the LR. This prevents "dead" spots and promotes the health of the sand bed. As a sand bed ages, I recommend mixing the sand in small areas and allowing the "bad stuff", as you call it, to mix in the current and feed my filter feeders. It's not "bad stuff"! It's food. And as far as exposing anaerobic bacteria to oxygenated water, sure some will die. But I'm not advocating you clean the entire sand bed all at once. The key is small areas. If you put your LR right on the DSB you can't clean under it and that could lead to trouble down the road. How long? I don't have a clew because my first DSB was set up properly with the Health of the DSB of primary importance.

The first DSB I set up the right way (100 gal system) lasted 10 years with out a crash. Then the set-up was sold complete to one person. He transported to his home set it back up and it's still going great because I taught him how to maintain a healthy DSB. I sold it, by the way, to move from WI to FL.

Here's a series of pics of how I clean small areas of my DSB.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/sand-3.jpg

First let the suction action of the water depth pull sand from deep in your sand bed.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/sand.jpg

Next allow the sand to slowly fall out of the tube.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/sand-4.jpg

And then raise the tube out of the water allowing the "filter feeder food" to mix into the water column.


If you are interested in learning more about the proper set up of DSBs go to my tank journal. There's a ton of good information you may get benefit from. Here is a link Amphibious' 135 mixed reef. (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member-tank-projects/412-amphibious-135-gal-reef.html)

Dang Amp, Rob should have you do a video cast on DSB maintenance. I currently have a SSB in my display and a DSB in my refugium. Sooner or later I will slowly be adding sand to the display tank till it is around 6 in or so. I ahve done my research and have tested it out in my refuge; I have come to the conclusion that DSB make reefkeeping easier. I know a local reefer that has had his tank up with a DSB for 18+ years and his tank is one to drool over.

Gwen I hear what your saying. I have been a SSB and a BB SB for years. I guess I am still a SSB with a remote DSB. I always had trouble with the looks and husbandry of a BB. I had to do water changes every week and aggressivly skim.

All and all this is just my fingers typing. Everyone has there preference on what is best for their tank and believe what works for them will works for everyone else.
This is not the case. BB, SS and DSB are proven to work in reefkeeping. They all have there bennefits and there short comings.

Cinematek, if I were to set up a new tank like you are I would ge DSB, because I found that the bennefits far out weigh the negatives. You will have to decide what will work best for you.