View Full Version : Need some advice on nitrates & filtering
kalmarrin
11-13-2006, 08:47 PM
Hi - I'm new to your forum and have been reading all the different posts on nitrate removal, etc. I, too, have a nitrate problem. Have had for a long time. But, I'm very torn about the things I've read, such as only feeding rarely or every couple of days, etc. I have been reading 'The Reef Aquarium', by Julian Sprung and it seems that he feels they should be fed well - not sparsely. My fish are very healthy - not fat - but I do feed a combo of mysis, emerald entree & brine shrimp once a day with a turkey baster. I feed them what they easily eat in 5 minutes.
I have a 120 gallon reef tank. A few new corals (two small acropora; a large donut coral,;a large hammer; a small hammer; various mushrooms that have all come from the same patch of mushrooms that I bought 2 years ago; one sun coral and several xenia that have all come from one small branch that a fish store manager in Miami gave me two months ago. I also have 5 pretty large rose anemones and one baby one. The largest is about 8" when fully open. The others around between 4 & 7 inches when open. These have all come from my orignal rose that I bought back in 2004. I know that people say they only split when stressed, but they have been around for over a year - except for the baby - and they are full and healthy-looking...to me, anyway.
I have 7 fish...most of which I've had for over a year. A Naso, a Kole, a very large maroon clown, a sand-sifting goby, a flame hawk, a copper-banded butterfly (newest addition for aptaisia control), and a male renses wrasse. I have one large banded shrimp and a couple of peppermint shrimp that have no appetite for aptasia.
I have a Turbofloater 1000. I have a UV filter that comes on with my halides only. I have a Coralife AquaPro 48" light with 150w, 14k halides, two actinics and three moonlights. I cycle my actinics on at 7 am, halides on at 9 am and off at 6 pm, and actinics off at 8, then moonlights. I use the regular filter material that I buy in a roll for my sump. I do not have bioballs. I change filters about 3 times a week, and clean my skimmer the same. I have calerpa in the bottom left chamber of my sump (only a week) with a light on 9 hours a day. I do 25-30 gallon water changes twice a month, and I use the Marin Reef salt. In my new water, I also bring the pH up to 8.4 before I change the water. I have a counter top RO/Di filter for my fresh water top-off.
My calcium stays between 420 and 500 without any supplements. My pH is usually right at 8.2 to 8.4. I do not check much else, other than nitrates. I use a test strip every other day as a quick test, and my water is always 'hard'. I'm still trying hard to get the hang of these chemical aspect of this. I have recently started using Marine Snow and Purple Up. I add 5 drops of Lugols iodine every week. That's about it.
I know this is a long post, but I knew you'd all be asking about what I had, etc., so I thought I'd put it all right here. I am just starting to collect frags - small and affordable. I have to get these nitrates down, but I just don't know how. I would appreciate any advice you can give.
Pam
doctorthompson
11-13-2006, 10:24 PM
Welcome to Talking Reef!
What size is your sump and how much water is in it? A few weeks ago I hooked up a small rubbermaid with an ~8" sand bed in it to our system and it finally "kicked in" a few days ago and is doing wonders for the nitrate levels -- from an average of 30ppm down to around 10ppm this morning. I've seen others do it with a 5 gallon bucket filled with 60 lbs. of sand and a bulkhead drilled into the bucket a couple inches above the top of the sand so the water can drain out and into the sump.
Just my $0.02, if you hit search Google for "remote deep sand bed" you'll find a lot more info on them.
wwest
11-13-2006, 11:36 PM
A friend of mine has a 125gal tank as well. He is also having a Nitrate problem. The only thing we have found that works for his is 10% water changes every 7 days and before we/he changes the water we clean all the equipment. it seems to be bringing the nitrates down some. Now with a tank that big in order to do it right without causing shock to the inhabitants it takes time to get them down. So i wish you the best of luck getting your down.
My Responses are my opinion and experience only. :)
I'm very torn about the things I've read, such as only feeding rarely or every couple of days, etc.When i started this hobby i fed everyday, and to be honest i think i was over feeding. Now i feed every other day and it seems like my tank is a lot more stable then it was when i fed everyday. I have heard of a lot of people running into problems when feeding everyday such as hair algae and red slime. I have experienced both but i haven't had sign of them since i started feeding every other day.
but I do feed a combo of mysis, emerald entree & brine shrimp once a day with a turkey baster. I feed them what they easily eat in 5 minutes.As for what to feed, Fish like a variety of foods. I mix mine up from squid, mysis and brine. I also threw some brine shrimp eggs in there every now and then. Basically whatever you decide to feed them they will like. But remember we like like variety and they do too. :)
I use a test strip every other day as a quick test, and my water is always 'hard'.OK i thought the test strips would be a good idea as well so i purchased some. I didn't want to rely on them until i knew what kind of reading i got. So what i did was test the water 10 times with the strips and 2 with different liquid test kits. The results shown that the test strips were a different color each time and at no time was any of the 10 strips the same reading as the 2 liquid test kits. It takes a little longer with the liquid kits but i wouldn't rely on the test strips.
Also when you "hard" are you referring to GH General Hardness?
I know this is a long post, but I knew you'd all be asking about what I had, etc., so I thought I'd put it all right here. I am just starting to collect frags (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#) - small and affordable. I have to get these nitrates (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#) down, but I just don't know how. I would appreciate any advice you can give.I really like how you posted all the info and I'm sure everyone on TR feels the same. :)
When you say your Nitrates are high. How high are we talking?
Also i didn't see it in the post but are you running any mechanical filtration?
CarmieJo
11-14-2006, 01:49 AM
Hi Pam,
:welcome: to TR. It sounds like you are doing a lot right. Have you tested your RO/DI water to see if it is the source of your nitrate?
I used to feed every other day. I mix mysis, flake, cyclopeeze, homemade, brine shrimp pellets and DT Phyto. I acquired a frag of dendronephthya by mistake (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/soft-coral/2510-dendrophyllia-dendronephthya.html) and have started feed cyclopeeze & DT everyday. My nitrate levels went up from 7 to 10 but the biggest difference I see is that I am battling HA again. On the other hand the dendronephthya is thriving. :) I told you all of this to say that I do think that feeding has a lot to do with nutrient level.
My solution has been to bump up my H2O changes from 10%/week to 15%. So far my nitrate has dropped back down but the algae is still a problem. Interestingly enough my snail population has also bloomed.
BTW, I recommend not dosing anything you aren't testing for.
Like Wes, I appreciate that you took the time to tell us about your tank so that we didn't have to go digging for the info. :thanks:
kalmarrin
11-14-2006, 04:39 AM
Well - thank you all for your posts. I'll try to answer them all in this post so as not to clog the works with inidividual replies.
This didn't occur to me to mention, but in the last week or so I have been feeding Oyster Eggs for my newly aquired corals; as well as a small sliver of cyclopese about every three days. I never thought that those could be a problem. I feed the suggested amount and turn off the protein skimmer for an hour or two afterward. Maybe that's some of it.
I've been worried about my little copperbanded butterfly, which is the main reason I've been feeding a bit more...he's already so skinny (we call him Pancake), but he's eating well. I don't know the physiology of fish enough to know when starvation sets in (smile), but they always seem so hungry. My roommate always reminds me that they're just 'swimming'...ha! Well....
I'm curious now about the test strips...perhaps I'll do my own test. Now, I have checked the pH with a real kit and it's usually very close. I do check my calcium about every two weeks - mostly because it's always the same without me even trying. It's a mystery. The hardness is the alk - I believe. I don't know how big my sump is, honestly, but my LFS guy that sold it to me may remember. It's not big enough to fill the whole underside of my cabinet. As a matter of fact, it seems a bit small compared to some that I've seen.
I'm intrigued about adding the extra sand-bed. I do have some room beside my sump, now that I finally got all of my lighting cords, wires and mess out from under, and put my skimmer in my sump. I probably have room for a real refugium....would that be better, or is filltering through a thick layer of sand better?
I do not have an algae problem - except when I first got my lights - had a bit of a bloom (green coloration on white live rock surfaces, etc.)...and every once in a blue moon I'll get what I think is hair algae growing out of the slits in the tops of my returns. I put a few snails in there and that helped. Every once in a while I'll get a tiny amount of the red slime along my sand bed against the glass....but even that has gone away with my more frequent water changes.
I just ordered like 150 various snails, crabs, etc. to add to my tank...hoping that will help with the detritus some.
I'd be very interested in anyone's opinion about refugiums vs the sand bed.
One last thing that I forgot to mention. I recently replaced my Maxi-jet powerheads with SEIO's....maybe a little overkill....I have two 620gph and two 820gph. I'm still having a bit of a challenge over placement, but, as I'm waiting for a new ballast to replace a blown one and dealing with only one halide right now, my tank is a bit lop-sided coral-wise, trying to keep everyone happy. But, I may be asking about that topic next.
I hope I answered everyone's questions. I'll check into the sump size. I'll get a very small turkey baster (lol) so I'm feeding less but fee like I'm feeding a normal amount....it must be a psychological thing or something. I appreciate all of you...very nice forum...and, just in case anyone reads this that lives near or around Atlanta, I am very interested in seeing other folks' tanks and stuff. I'm really in a learning frenzy I think....but, I would love to meet some local folks. I only know one other fellow who lives near me that's a salt water aquarist. Thanks again. Pam
wwest
11-14-2006, 09:00 PM
I'm intrigued about adding the extra sand-bed. I do have some room beside my sump (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#), now that I finally got all of my lighting cords, wires and mess out from under, and put my skimmer (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#) in my sump (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#). I probably have room for a real refugium (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/2814-need-some-advice-nitrates-filtering.html#)....would that be better, or is filltering through a thick layer of sand better?
Added more sand always helps,( in most opinions :) ) The sand will help filter the nitrates. Im a big fan of DSB's I think they help the tank and for some reason i think they make the tank look good too. :)
What all do you test for?
kalmarrin
11-14-2006, 09:17 PM
I'm not great at testing, but I've been trying to be better lately. I test my pH about every 2 days. I test my calcium about once every 2 weeks. It is almost always at 420 - 480 or something like that. (I'm starting to keep a log this week because my memory is gone). I use a test strip, as I mentioned earlier, but may stop that since they aren't really reliable. I test for nitrates and my alk. Honestly, I've been using the test strip more than anything just for a quickie, and taking my water to my LFS more than anything the last two months. I hate to admit it, but I find some of those kits (like the magnesium) to be a royal pain, so I avoid them. I know that's bad, and my new year resolution will be to correct that behavior (smile). I do have the big 'master' test kit, but it's over a year old and I'm not sure if I can buy new chemicals for it - but, perhaps I should look into that.
wwest
11-14-2006, 09:52 PM
Thats cool, Yea i hate testing for Mag and iodine. I mean come on you prepare for 15 minutes and then test for 2 :) lol but its something i have to do..
I would check the dates stamped on the test kit bottles. If they are bad i would consider buying a new kit.
Amphibious
11-14-2006, 11:24 PM
Pam,
I just read this thread through and you talk about your Nitrates being high but I can't find what reading you are getting. How high is high? What is the actual reading? What brand of test kit are you using. Not all are good, most are not.
About feeding your fish....I am a firm believer in feeding your fish multiple times a day. I'm retired and have the luxury of being able to feed all day long and most days I do. I'm going to quote wwest here and comment on that quote.
But remember we like like variety and they do too.They and we like variety that's true. We also eat everyday, multiple times in fact. Why does anyone think their fish doesn't need the same requirements. Wwest, when your stomach tells you it needs food you feed it. I maintain your fish feel the same way. The difference is, you can feed yourself, your fish are dependent on you to take care of their needs. In the ocean fish graze continuously on plankton floating or swimming by. They don't have that luxury in captivity but are dependent on the habits of their keeper. Some are luckier than others. It's a matter of finding the balance between enough and too much but, once a day or worse, every other day, is simply not enough. Let me give you an example; let's say you feed at noon what they will eat in 5 minutes (Another fallacy). Then twenty four hours later, noon the next day, you skip the feeding. Then 24 hours later, noon the second day, you feed what they will eat in 5 minutes. Sounds ridiculous to me. Anyone doing this, I suggest you put yourself through this regimen and see how you do. That's 48 hours without food!
Pam, I encourage you to feed more often. Fatten your fish up. They will reward you with health and long life. This is not the cause of your Nitrate problem. Your filter system is lacking in the proper Nitrification capabilities. If you saw me feed my 135 you would be astonished that I have low Nitrates .5 ppm.
There are several member threads that go into Nitrate elimination. Below the picture in my Sig area is a link to mine. I encourage you to take the time to read it.
wwest
11-15-2006, 12:01 AM
Every person has there own way of feeding. My way is based on my experience and what i have read. It also depends on what type of fish you have that you are feeding. Some need food twice a day or more and some don't. My fish seem to be very happy and very healthy with feeding once every other day.
P.S. I am the worse person to compare eating habits with. lol I am lucky to eat once a day. During the week i am really bad about eating. I guess two jobs will do that to ya :) lol
feeding is a touchy thing, really the best thing is to observer your fish.
Amphibious,
i do not agree with the fact that fish need to eat multiple times daily just because we do. there are countless animals in nature that eat once daily, or once weekly, with little regard for how we need to eat.
many fish eat more than we feed at a feeding also. when you drop food in your tank they eat, depending on the type of fish, in two or three hours you will see that fish grazing algae off rocks, or picking copepods from the sand bed, or better yet, eating left over food that was stuck in a rock.
im not saying feeding multiple times a day is bad, im also not saying you should only feed once every day or two.
the key to good husbandry is observation. look at your fish, are they growing, gaining weight, maintaining good coloration, well then to the best of your knowledge you have a healthy fish (closest thing we have to a physical exam). if they are not, well then you need to adjust.
if you feed multiple times then it should be small manageable amounts, remember as much as you might think you are feeding your fish, you are really feeding your tank.
and to that point if you are having excess algae growth or nitrates, etc, then over feeding might be contributing to that. but as mentioned it may also be an indicator that your natural filtration is not up to handling the bio load in your tank.
im sorry, i haven't read this whole thread, i just wanted to jump in on this point. im not disagreeing with Amphibious, you can feed your tank multiple times a day, what i am also saying is feeding once a day or even once every other day occasionally is not wrong either if there is enough food for your fish to graze on if they are grazing fish, some are not. again, knowing your pets needs..
Amphibious
11-15-2006, 11:19 AM
i do not agree with the fact that fish need to eat multiple times daily just because we do. there are countless animals in nature that eat once daily, or once weekly, with little regard for how we need to eat. True, Rob. I can think of a few, alligators eat a huge meal and then rest for days digesting it. Lion Fish can be feed large portions and then go days without food. We could discuss others. But when it comes to the kind of fish we keep in our reef tanks, I believe it's a different matter. For the most part, we keep small streamlined, active fish with metabolisms that are regulated by the temperature of the water. Fish are cold blooded, meaning the warmer their environment the faster they digest their food. Our reefs are kept in the range of 76 to 82 degrees. That's not cold and fosters rapid digestion.
the key to good husbandry is observation. look at your fish, are they growing, gaining weight, maintaining good coloration, well then to the best of your knowledge you have a healthy fish (closest thing we have to a physical exam). if they are not, well then you need to adjust.During your "observation" time are your fish swimming back and forth in front of you? When you walk into the room do they come to your side of the tank? If you answered "YES" to either of those questions, your fish are talking to you in the only language they know. By their actions they are saying to you, FEED US!!! AND ALL THIS TIME YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE JUST HAPPY TO SEE YOU!!! Wrong!!!
if you feed multiple times then it should be small manageable amounts, remember as much as you might think you are feeding your fish, you are really feeding your tank.This is one of my "pet" misnomers. Remember this, as long as your fish are eating what you are feeding, you are not feeding your tank! We are talking about feeding your fish, remember?! Feeding your tank is a different subject. Which brings up another point. How many carnivorous clean-up crew do you have? Shrimp, snails, hermit crabs, worms, Copopods and myriads of other critters. All need to eat! If you don't feed THEM they will eat each other, to some degree.
im not disagreeing with Amphibious, you can feed your tank multiple times a day, what i am also saying is feeding once a day or even once every other day occasionally is not wrong either if there is enough food for your fish to graze on if they are grazing fish, some are not. again, knowing your pets needs..Thanks for not disagreeing, Rob. The operative word in this last quote is occasionally. Plus, I believe non grazing fish will be forced to "graze" because of hunger.
If I can convince even one of the, "every other day" crowd It's a start.
Hard for me to even consider not feeding what I feel is appropriate for the health and well being of animals under my care.
doctorthompson
11-15-2006, 11:39 AM
The operative word in this last quote is occasionally. Plus, I believe non grazing fish will be forced to "graze" because of hunger.
I've noticed less aggression in our yellow-tailed damsels since I added the RDSB and was able to start "overfeeding" our tank again without the nitrates skyrocketing. I'd have to side with Amp on this one, I'm all for feeding well but only as long as you are countering that with aggressive nutrient export methods such as big weekly water changes, big skimmer, refugia, etc. (gee, can you tell I'm also a bit of an Anthony Calfo fanboy? :) )
kalmarrin
11-15-2006, 05:10 PM
Hi, DoctorThompson, Rob, Wwest and Amphibious - I have to say that in my limited experience I can appreciate all of your opinions. Being in the dog/cat world, I have learned and encourage my clients to feed their dogs twice daily, instead of once....puppies get fed 3 times a day, depending on breed. I would say that probably 80% of the new clients I meet only feed once a day. 70% of their pets are overweight to obese. I had this problem as well, before I knew better. I am, and my clinic is, all about educating clients.
I feed my fish twice a day....and, I do the 'how much they eat in 5 minutes'...I think Amphibious didn't agree with that, but I can't go back and read it just now. Five minutes is a long time...I have a couple of fish that aren't big eaters, and when they swim away, I watch the others clean up everything until I feel like they are satiated.
It's true that we can't really do a 'physical' - but, it's also true that instinct and observation are great tools and, honestly, the best we have, to discern whether we are good carekeepers of our fish. I watch all of my fish when they feed....especially Pancake - my new copperbanded butterfly. I purchased him knowing that he may have a short life and that feeding/eating could be an issue. So, I pay close attention to whether or not he is actively pursuing my frozen offerings. He does very well....He's nearly eliminated all of my aiptasia, so it's even more important that he eat other stuff. I was told last night that he will also eat copopods and amphipods, so that's good, too. My friends always tease me that my fish aren't hungry - they are just 'swimming', which cracks me up - but - as Amphibious stated - they would graze all day in the big sea. Yes, there are morsels that get caught on the live rock, etc., that they can nibble on - but, my Naso is a big boy. He wouldn't even eat frozen food for the first few months I had him - only seaweed. Then I ran out of seaweed and couldn't get any for a few days, and he decided frozen was alright. Now he eats both. I know he needs the green, but I'm happy he's getting protein. He's a big eater. My Kole is a big eater...his cute little lip-prints all over my glass are a tribute to his grazing. Unfortunately, I do not have algae for him to eat, and he won't really take the seaweed...so, he gets Emerald Entree for his greens.
Now, to the original nitrate question. Honestly, I have not done a true 'single' nitrate test. I'll try to do one tonight if my chemicals are in date. I use the dip-stick, and have my LFS test it - they always just look at the bright pink and say 'your nitrates are too high'. On the test strip they are usually in the 2nd pinkest area.
I am going to spring for a refugium this week. I have looked into the NO3 stuff, and sulfer reactors, etc., and they scare me. I'm leary of adding alot of supplements to my tank. I'm leary because I have never seen an elementary explanation that I can actually 'get'. I understand where nitrates come from, and I know that I'm gonna have them because 'fish gotta poop', etc. But, they gotta get lower. Hopefully, a refugium will help. If I had a way to get my sump out from under my tank and buy a larger one and a larger skimmer, I would. That will be my next tank, or when I move. I am committed now to doing weekly smaller water changes, just to see what happens.
Any opinions out there about the 200 micron filter socks? They were suggested to me last night in lieu of the filter pads I'm using.
You guys are so great....thanks so much for playing (smile). I will begin reading thru the forum tonight to learn. I appreciate your input, and I'll try to get a true 'nitrate' only reading and let you know.
Pam
CarmieJo
11-15-2006, 11:24 PM
Pam,
You can add a DSB in your 'fuge and get the best of both worlds.
kalmarrin
11-16-2006, 09:35 AM
OK - I've been researching refugiums for hours and due to the fact that my tank is right up against the wall, and that it's only 4' x 2', I don't think I'm going to be able to use one of the AquaFuge's I had hoped to get. The smaller one is still wider than my tank...and then there's my light that sits right on the tank.
I was liking the idea that it was already plumbed, had a light and another small skimmer. I thought, then, that I'd sit it right next to my sump, but I measured that and it's only 30" long, but higher on one side than the other. It's 16" high on the left, and slopes down to 12" high on the right. The refuguium aparrently has some kind of leveling lip on it so it won't sit on the floor under the cabinet - and, it's only 14" high or something - so, I'd have to raise it up to get the pipes over the edge of the sump. Then there's the issue of how will I change my filter pads if this thing is in the way. SO...
I have enough room at the end of my sump to put something about 18" x 14", but I have no clue about the plumbing end of it. I would like to have something clear so I could see things in there, as opposed to a rubbermaid (I read the posts about the bowing, etc.).
Does anyone know of any plans anywhere that show a person how to build one? If I found an acrylic box, how do you drill holes in it without burning/melting the plastic? I was really looking to this as being a great help for my nitrates, but I just don't have any room. And, I can't get a new sump because my cabinet has that pesky center board that makes you wanna kill someone when you're trying to do things in the sump.
Any ideas are welcome....
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