JustDavidP's Seahorse Corral and Sump Project

[JustDavidP]

Well... we had a nasty storm the other day. The power was out for hours. I had JUST finished building and installing a DIY sump for my 26 gallon bow front. It was running with the new sump for just a month...and then... disaster! Well...in the eyes of my wife anyway....

I neglected to drill the return nozzles to break the siphon in times of pump failure or power outage. Because the 26 Bow front stand is not "roomy", I was forced to make a real small sump. It obviously is NOT capable of handling extra overflow from the display tank. I had in and around 5 gallons of salt water on my wife's carpet in the family room! :shock:

Some pictures of the original configuration below:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Newsump2.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Sump1.jpg

Please folks, if your sump can not handle overflow from the display in these emergency conditions you really should modify the return to include a siphon break of sorts. I knew that I should do this (and it took all of 2 minutes to do..after the fact) but I was lazy and didn't get around to it. Learn from my mistakes!

So... I am making a serious modification to that system and I will document it here for all to learn from.

My project includes drilling through the family room floor and running the overflow to the fish room in the basement. In there, I have an unused 75 gallon tank (scratched and abused) that will be my new sump :D Imagine that... the display is 26 gallons..the sump will run in and around 50 gallons. How much fun is that!!!

I am starting this weekend and will have pics and news for y'all soonest.

Have a stellar weekend!

Dave

[Rob]

yes, this is great advice...
and i have had that problem as well, but not as drastic. my sump was only about a gallon or so to small to take the drain back from the display, but now that i have installed the new SCWD and all that plumbing with siphon break holes, i am cool.. no worried about overflows
(except when the feed from my kalk bucket falls out of the tank.. Grrr, what a messs )

PS, i would love to see mroe pics of the tank it self...lol

[JustDavidP]

Okie Dokie... I'll dig up some pics now. I'm guessing since this is my thread and my project that it is appropriate to post them here.

D

[JustDavidP]

Here's a full tank shot taken just a couple weeks ago.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/full.jpg

I drilled my own overflow using a wooden template and a dremel. It was messy, and loud, but it worked very well. By the way, not that I recommend doing this, but I drilled and installed the overflow with the fish, rock, sand and 2/3 of the water in the tank. Again, this is NOT for everybody. I was patient and also had a bit of luck on my side.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/oflow1.jpg

I also built my own hood to match the AGA stand. I installed 2X55 PC, one actinic and one full spec. I wanted to introduce some gorgonians and soft corals that are seahorse compatible.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/hoodntank2.jpg

One of the many inhabitants:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Hendrix.jpg

I have two pair of Hippocampus Reidi in there. I also have the mandarin, and a single blue striped pipe fish. I'm looking for a mate for him.

More to come....

[JustDavidP]

Seabiscuit, my busiest female H. Reidi

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Pony2.jpg

Ponyboy, her mate, and you can see why I say they are "busy". They produce offspring EVERY two weeks.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/colorfulpreggers.jpg

Just minutes after expelling the last fry from his brooding pouch, he entices her to make another egg drop. My Reidi have a gestation period of exactly 14 days. This makes life easy when predicting the birthing and preparing the kreisels etc. Here he is making his plea for more babies.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/MatingDance.jpg

My male bluestripe pipe fish

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/NicePipe.jpg

[JustDavidP]

Babies! Everyone loves babies!

Gathering to "roost" for the night. Doesn't it look like the one on top is kissin 'nite nite' to the one below it?

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/nightnight.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/GreatJanuaryFry.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/BestHunter.jpg

My growout system

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/10GGrow1.jpg

Okay.. I promise...the rest of the thread WILL be about my project.

Dave

[Rob]

thanks, those are awesome pics...
great job on the tank, it looks great...

[pham411]

nice picz mang!!! ill post up my 75 gal proj in a little bit. what ever happen to that photo gallery rob? is that up already?

[gwen_o_lyn]

Nice pictures!

[Jimm]

I love reading about DIY projects like this. You did a great job matching the hood to the stand. And who doesn't like seahorse pictures?

[JustDavidP]

Thanks Jim...

Now I need to beef up the stand. I'm sure that AGA did NOT imagine this tank and stand to be full of a DSB and 2lb/gallon LR. I can't even open the front door anymore...it leans forward I may just build a brand new stand all together.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Hey Dave,

Great setup. It looks very peaceful for the little water-equines!

How has your experience been with seahorses? Do you think it's a super difficult species to take care of? Do you think that seahorses could be kept in a refugium??

Cheers,
Christi

[byseven]

Hey !!!

Couple mouths ago I over fill the sump and then guess what hapened ?
Power was out for couple hours and my WIFE was at the house with the baby.
I got about 5 gal in the kitchen , breakfast area, pantry, landry ....it was THE MESS. ( glad was tile)

I drow two lines on the sump , so I know the limits running and off :)
Always Lern from mistakes :)

[JustDavidP]

Great questions Christi....

In answering the first question... I love my experiences with Seahorses. I was recently forced to break down my 75 Gallon Reef due to business/travel needs. I really needed "something" to keep me grounded. "I was born in the sign of water..and it's there where I feel my best" So, I was going to set up a simple 26 gallon bowfront as a Fish Only. A fellow reefer in the Boston area had a trio of Hippocampus Reidi that he needed to sell. I researched the species for three months, and rebuilt the 26 to fit their needs. The rest is history.

They are not super difficult to keep as long as you don't neglect them. I say this with a hint of fear in my voice because they certainly are NOT for everyone and a seahorse could suffer in the hands of the wrong person. In all my time in marine aquaria, this is the EASIEST tank I've maintained. They do require feedings daily if not twice daily of frozen mysid shrimp. They have no stomach, instead utilizing a single and FAST tract much like our intestines. They can not "hold" food in a belly and therefore need to eat little meals, and often.

If you keep in mind that they are a lagoon or reef edge species (At least H. Reidi, the species that I keep and breed), and you treat them as such, they can and will thrive in your system(s). With that said, their tanks should look much like a refugium, but you should NOT keep them in a refugium for a reef tank. Confusing? Of course it is....

There are a few reasons for this. First and foremost, although tropical, H. Reidi do NOT like water temperatures in the 80's where we keep our reef systems. H. Reidi tend to thrive in waters in the mid to upper 70's (F). Other species do, in fact, like warmer waters. Others, like H. Erectus are found as far northward as New England and are 'temperate', requiring waters in the 60's and 70's. Folks who keep them often have chillers on thier systems.

Another reason why it is NOT a good idea to put them in a refugium is, well.. you'd no longer have a refugium. While most seahorses in the hobby are now tank raised or captive bred, others are wild and will clean your fuge of every mysid and pod that you own. Even those that are tank raised will quickly learn to enjoy the wild food and may even shun frozen thereafter. All in all, it's not a real good idea.

Finally, seahorses are prone to bacterial and viral infections that could be introduced by other fish (who are resistant, but carry) or corals. They are a scaleless fish and have very few, if any, mechanisms for protection against disease that they do not deal with in the wilds.

Seahorses are best kept in a "Species Only" system, designed uniquely for their needs. If and when you have them established in their little oasis, you can then find other 'complimenting' species to keep with them. Others, including myself, keep pipefish in the same systems as they are very closely related and have the same needs. Mandarins are also a good choice ONLY if you find one that eats frozen foods. More agressive fish or fish that are agressive eaters should NOT be kept with ponies or they will ultimately outcompete and kill them.

I coud go on all day about seahorses, but have to get to work some time :D If you have any other specifics you'd like to know about..ask away. If I don't have an answer, I'll find one for you.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Thanks Dave for the awesome info!

Hey - I'm an aquarius too! Must have something to do with my love for the marine world and amazing calm that it brings with it.

Yeah, unfortunately, that's what I thought you would say about having seaponies in a refugium. I would love to have them someday, but I guess I have to focus on getting my new upgrade up and running first. (upgrading from 550liter to 1600liters! - I'm going to have to snorkel to get into the tank!). My husband, I think, would kill me right now if I came up with yet another idea for reefkeeping! :-)

All the best,
Christi

[JustDavidP]

Actually *giggling* I'm a Cancer...but if ANYONE tries to tell me it's not a water sign I fight it tooth and nail! The crab IS the sign of cancer... and it just so happens that it is my favorite time of the year, spending hours on the waters of Cape Cod during the Summer days in New England.

Dave

[Jimm]

Goes off singing...."TIME FOR...A COOL CHANGE!"

[JustDavidP]

Jim is helping me show my age :D Great song eh?

[Jimm]

Rock on Brother! That was my favorite song back in the day.

[JustDavidP]

Sump Stand is completed!! This 2X4 construction is 1 foot off the floor to help my old back and to help insulate the sump. You can see where the overflow will come down from the room above and enter the 75G sump. There will be a refugium on the far side, fed by a "T" and a ball valve. I will be using a Mag 18 or other large pump to push water back to the first floor. You can also see the RO/DI unit and holding tank that will be my auto top off.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpproject1.jpg

More later...

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Looks good Dave!

Hey - I thought you might enjoy this movie...happened to run across it on RC.

Birth of Seahorse (http://www.wheresoursquirrel.com/Seahorse/shbirth.mpg)


Cheers!:p

[JustDavidP]

Here's a better shot of the top off reservoir:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Topoff2.jpg

Another of the float valve connected to the Auto Shut Off (ASO) on the RO/DI unit.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/TopoffFloat.jpg

The end of the line. This is my waste line, plumbed into my drain from the upstairs bathroom. In the warmer weather, I connect this line directly to my Koi pond outside and it is allowed to overflow in the pond and water the bog / marginal plants. I also use it to water the houseplants. Finally, I've used the wastewater to do laundry! Why not... it should NOT be wasted if at all possible.

The break in the line allows me to do this and more. It is GREAT when disconnecting the unit for service or backflushing.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/wasteline.jpg

Dave

[JustDavidP]

Thanks Christi.. neat stuff.

Go figure... Sweedish, A Neuro scientist, into marine aquaria.. where have ya been my whole life ;) ...er um...Kidding Mr. ReefBaby

D

[JustDavidP]

Seahorse with a clownfish.... really *sigh*

I guess if you are looking for "automatic feeders", there's an option. I can guarentee you that none of those fry lived for more than 10 minutes.

Person should be hung by his/her eyelids.

D

[Reefbaby]

Well...according to him, the clowns don't eat the fry....but, then again, he's trying to breed maroons with ocellaris??

Ouch...eyelids....that just makes my knees ache! :-)

[Reefbaby]

Go figure... Sweedish, A Neuro scientist, into marine aquaria.. where have ya been my whole life ...er um...Kidding Mr. ReefBaby

My husband just cancelled my subscription to contribution!

[Reefbaby]

:p Just kidding!

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I'm a daughter of a German father and an Irish mother, am married to a German and am living in Sweden! A bit complicated...

However, I don't know WHY I wasn't smart like Eric Borneman and decided to do my PhD in the topic of my own hobby!@@#$@#$! Sure would make life easier!

[Reefbaby]

forgot to add that I actually grew up in Boulder, CO and am VERY American! :-)

[Reefbaby]

I also use it to water the houseplants. Finally, I've used the wastewater to do laundry! Why not... it should NOT be wasted if at all possible.

Dave - I completely agree with you. I've been wanting to figure out a system to collect the waste water and use it for something else. How do you use it for laundry though??

[Kassun]

Nice setup, I like the idea of the sump in the basement. Putting it over a drain would make for very easy and fast water changes.

--Kassun

[JustDavidP]

I run the waste hose upstairs into the drum/tub and fill it..and use it for cold water washes.

D

[JustDavidP]

I finally moved the 75G into place this weekend. I also cut the acrylic for baffles and with the help of my DIY guru, made a holding bracket for my auto top off, float valve. Check it out!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/floatrig2.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/floatrig.jpg

I now am on hold until the glass company makes my 1/4" 17 and 1/4 by 18 inch pane that I'll be using for the ultimate refugium on the left side.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpwork2.jpg

Basically, water will come from the floor above and enter the sump on the right. There will also be a "T" with a ball valve to divert some water to the extreme left. It is there that the fuge will be. The fuge will cascade into the return pump chamber. The other water flow traverses a series of baffles and also visits the return pump chamber. For now, I will be running two HOT skimmers while I save for my new Euroreef Skimmer. The float valve assembly will live in the return pump chamber.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpwork.jpg

The fuge will run at about 18 inches in depth. The first baffle on the right is also set high (for now) to allow for 18 inches of water. This is due to my needs for HOT skimming at this time. The center of the sump will run in and around 10 inches in depth.

I can't wait to get it all done and cut a hole in my floor!

D

[kj_yoda]

Looks amazing. Cant wait to see more

[Reefbaby]

Great job Dave!!! So, that's where you've been!! :-)

[JustDavidP]

That and putting in 50 hours a week at the office. Plus, the family took vacation in FL. That leaves me at home to fix/maintain what it took two "Tweens" to ruin :) I've removed, fixed and re-hung doors, patched holes in the walls...oh yeah...the joys of living with two very active boys.

D

[kj_yoda]

glad I don't have kids...yet

[JustDavidP]

Updated picture of 75G sump.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Sumpdate.jpg

I've glued in the acrylic baffles with silicone. I glued in the glass divider on the left with silicone and used egg crate diffuser as an overflow strainer for that refugium side. The plumbing is done (somewhat) and the sand is in the fuge.

I'm adding water, rock and macro this week and using a powerhead to move the waterflow through the sump for a week or more until I cut it into the tank, one floor above.

Dave

[Rob]

awesome dave.. its looking good, and like a pretty simple design.. "i like simple.. :D"

[JustDavidP]

Yeah...the baffles on the left are pretty unique in that they are NOT what I want them to eventually be. The far right baffle extends to within 2 inches of the top of the tank. This is because I have to use HOT skimmers for now. I sold my EuroReef (slapping forehead) and want a new skimmer, but for now, have to use the prizm and remora and therefore need a tallish water column to do so. In the end, silicone is easy to remove, the baffle can be cut, and I can do something different with it.

The middle baffle has also been cut down. No need for it to be tall as water will work UNDER it and not over it. I didn't cut it at first, because...well...just didn't do it. But, I realized I'm going to have problems servicing the Mag Pump in the center chamber with that big ol' Oceanic brace in the way. By cutting down that center baffle, I have more head room to work in there.

Otherwise, it is a standard "center return" chambered sump-fugium!

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Looks great Dave! So, the left side will be the refugium?

btw....love your new avatar! :-)

[JustDavidP]

G'day Christi!

Yeah... the left is the refugium. It now has 4 and 1/2 inches of Southdown/Old Castle (Whatever it's called now), Live Rock and Macro as well. I put water into that chamber and the center chamber which will be the return pump section. This area will also house a heater, my new probes :D and other small stuff. For now, I have a maxijet 1200 with nylon hose that pumps water BACK into the fuge and is helping me circulate and 'season' the fuge. I'm going to keep it like this for a week or more and then cut it into the system upstairs.

The avitar is just temporary. I thought the pixels would be better..but it's not real crisp. I have others I'm going to try. I just wanted to get rid of the BRS logo on TR and better assimilate into the TR world ;)

Dave

[Rob]

I just wanted to get rid of the BRS logo on TR and better assimilate into the TR world ;)

"you will be assimilated"
"your uniqueness will be added to our own"
"resistance is futile"

:D

[kj_yoda]

"you will be assimilated"
"your uniqueness will be added to our own"
"resistance is futile"

:D

Ohhh...you are a treki! Now it all makes sense. LOL

[Reefbaby]

Great seahorse Dave!! That's absolutely appropriate for you!
You have now been officially assimilated! :-)


This area will also house a heater, my new probes
So which ones did you decide to go with??

[Rob]

Ohhh...you are a treki! Now it all makes sense. LOL
well i dont know if thats a good thing or a bad thing...
im scared to ask...lol

[Jimm]

Jim raises an eyebrow and remarks, "Fascinating."

[Reefbaby]

okay....so now we've got a trekky thread AND an office space thread going.....

what's this world coming to?! :-)

[kj_yoda]

okay....so now we've got a trekky thread AND an office space thread going.....

what's this world coming to?! :-)

My question is... what's next?

[JustDavidP]

Water and Macro and Such In Place....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpin.jpg

[JustDavidP]

Just waiting for a big momma pump...and a new skimmer...but cycling the sump as we speak...

D

[gwen_o_lyn]

Looks great ;)

[kj_yoda]

Very nice pictures. Can't wait to see everything when you cut through the floor

[Rob]

the middle is the return right?
how much water fits in there?

[Reefbaby]

Dave - we're talking professional here! Looks fantastic! :-)

[JustDavidP]

The center chamber IS the return. At this point, there is only like 5 inches of water in it. When it is running full, it will run at the baffle height of 11 inches. This is plenty o' room for the internal pump.

The right chamber is set REAL high right now to allow for the HOT skimmers. It is really stressing the acrylic. I'm already searching for a used Euroreef or something because this configuration, and the lack of skimming is going to kill me.

D

[Rob]

ok.. i was just asking because i have an issue with mine in that its small, and only holds about 4-5 gallons.. and if anything happens to your auto-topoff it can run dry very quickly...
i have this issue on occasion.. where you pump wont kick n right, it the line comes loose.. and with in a few hours (while im at work) the return section runs the risk of running fry and burning up the pump..

just thought i would mention it, because i didn't even think about it when setting mine up

[JustDavidP]

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. I've actually put out an APB for a decent skimmer. If I get that soonest, I can reduce the baffle height on the far right, increase the baffle height on the center and run a few more gallons in there.

Thanks!

Dave

[Reefbaby]

So Dave - may be a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyway. If any of your return pumps break down, can you hold the overflow volume in this sump? The volume left over in the middle portion doesn't look like much.....but I'm SURE you've probably taken this all into consideration. If so, I'd be interested in seeing how you've set that up! :-)

[JustDavidP]

Actually Christi...

The display is just 26 gallons. To boot, the returns are now drilled. If my pump fails, I will get just 4 or 5 gallons sent to the sump. With the sump being a whopping 75 Gallons, there is no way in heck that it couldn't handle the overflow.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Cool! I knew you would have thought of everything! :-)

When you say the returns are drilled, do you mean the tubings are drilled to avoid siphoning water?

[JustDavidP]

Yes, drilled to aviod back siphon.

Y'know.. I wasn't going to do this..make any upgrades to my system.... I guess you can never go wrong making an investment in your hobby!

D

[Reefbaby]

Yeah...know how that goes. In the end it's always good! Just got the first coat of paint (after waterproofing the entire room!) on in the aquarium technical room today. Stayed home from work today to work on my writing and got distracted and got a first layer of paint on (ssshhhh....don't tell anyone!). I've got to get my own little thread with my project going....hmmmm...

[JustDavidP]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Fuged.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Fuge1.jpg

Let there be life!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reefbaby]

Cool Dave!! Love it! You've even got some mangrove growing in there!

Is that an overflow in your refugium? (back left corner)

your life is lookin' good! :-)

[Rob]

dave looks great...
thanks for keeping us updated..

[JustDavidP]

That is the original overflow for the Oceanic 75G. I simply placed a piece of glass and siliconed it in place. The water level is such that it will never get into the overflow...but...just in case ;)

This is all just temporary. I may end up using the 75G again, that is why I left the overflow in there. This was just a 'fix' using all of the components I had laying around.

Dave

[kj_yoda]

Very cool! I love the mangrove in the refugium.

[JustDavidP]

I've always used mangroves in my sumps. They are great! I did have a problem when I had too many in my reef... magnesium swings like crazy.

I collect the seeds on the beaches in FL. You CAN NOT disturb the trees/plants, but you can collect the "pods" on the beach.

D

[Reefbaby]

Hey Dave - hope you're doing well today friend!

I was thinking about refugiums and light cycles last night and was curious as to whether you have your refugium on a reverse light cycle?

[JustDavidP]

Yep... on ALL of my systems, utilizing refugia, I've opted to use a reverse photoperiod. This helps quite a bit (in my systems anyways) with the swings in Ph associated with photosynthesis.

I've always used Chaeto, and various Caulerpa varieties. The Chaeto is very safe. The Caulerpa needs to be pruned back often to avoid it going "sexual". Others, who keep their refugiums lit 24/7 don't worry much about the caulerpa going sexual as it requires a proper light and dark period to do so.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Do you feel that there are any benefits to lighting 24/7 vs reverse photoperiod? I'd never thought about doing it 24/7...

[JustDavidP]

I fear the 24/7 photo period! First and foremost, you are going to get a "1/2 life" out of your bulbs. If you typically run an 11 or 12 hour photo period, and are changing your bulbs every 6 months or so, and then you run 24/7, you would imagine that you'd have to replace bulbs every 3 months or so. Never mind the energy consumption issues that today, are an issue for all of us! Finally, who DOESN'T have heat issues to contend with from season to season. Keeping any part of your system lit that long can only add to the heat buildup.

Also, I firmly believe in NOT messing with "life". What I mean is that the various macro algae and other "things" in the system that are dependant on photosynthesis also depend on a "dark phase" or "Calvin Cycle" for completion of the process. During the Calvin Cycle, ATP and NADPH molecules that have accumulated in the macro during the light cycle are "processed". The ATP and NADPH molecules are energy packed but are unusable during the lighted part of the day. They depend on the dark phase to convert that energy into sugars and cellular building blocks.

Personally, I don't feel like cheating that cycle is of any benefit UNLESS you continuously have problems with your macro algae going "sexual". Otherwise, although you are keeping the macro algae in "stasis", you could be doing additional harm to the system or its inhabitants. Remember too that not only does the wanted macro use this light, but the unwanted, nuisance algae also use it!

My solution...I trim the macro. I've NEVER had it turn on me. I suppose if you were a hands off kind of hobbyist, it could happen. I'm in my fish room, sump and refugium daily. I just never let it get to a point where the macro is overgrown and therefore ripe for that kind of activity.

Dave

[DJGonzo69]

Dave,
Can you please elaborate more on what reverse photo period is. I'm getting a mini PC light for my hob fuge & it would help on my setup.
Also what is a good light spectrum for growth of macro algae? Is it still 10K?

TIA,
John

[Rob]

sorry, i know im not Dave, but i will jump in
a reverse photo is simply running your refugium lights while your display tank lights are off.. so during the day, your tank is light, and when those lights go off, your fuge lights come on..

there are many benefits to this, and im sure Dave will explain (and i think he does a better job than me so i will let him)

regarding color spectrum, its a bit different, you wan ta lower K, its more like growing plants than coral. you would want to use a 5500K or 6500K for optimal growth.
that said, most people will use regular utility lighting, kitchen fluoros and flood lights with great success

[DJGonzo69]

Rob,
Thanks for the info. I found a light that had 6700k PC & I was not sure if that was ok. Now I know what to get. Also if we are trying to mimic the natural state of lighting don't you think it would be the same as your display tank cycle...sunrise to sundown type of cycle? Or did people just find that reverse cycle is better?

Thx,
John

[Reefbaby]

John - the major reason for doing reverse photoperiod is to create an environment with more stable pH and no fluctuations that are pretty typical in most tanks.
When the lights are on and photosynthesis is occuring, carbon dioxide is taken up by the macroalgae, oxygen is released and and this creates a rise in pH.
When the lights are off, respiration from all those photosynthetic organisms gives off carbon dioxide which causes pH to decrease. A reverse light cycle will at least partially offset pH swings.

Dave - I, personally, would agree with you. I think it's better to give organisms (and I mean ALL organisms) as much of a realistic setting as possible and although the lights may be on in a reverse fashion, they are still getting their "down" time as well.

[Rob]

john,
regarding the natural state, you are replicating it..

a common misconception to new comers is that your tank should be lit while the suns up.. makes sense right? the sun comes up, the lights should go on...

well the one thing that missed here is that it doesn't matter the "real" time of day, you just have to regulate the time in your tank.

for example, in my tank my lights don't start to come on till 11:00 AM the MHs don't come on till 2:00 PM... the last of the lights shut off at midnight...
so to my tank, 11:00 am is day break for the tank... and midnight is sunset for the tank... its the consistency that counts not the actual time

now to relate that to your fuge, its the same thing. since it s separate tank, its independent. for the fuge day break would start at 11:00 PM and sunset would be at 10:00 AM the next morning... how it relates to the tank, or the real sun for that matter doesn't matter... as long as it gets a consistent photo cycle as dave outlined...

hope that makes sense, sorry for the ramble..

[JustDavidP]

John,

I found that my macros grow under just about ANY lighting. I have C. Serrulata and Chaetomorpha that is growing in a 10 gallon tank with a standard AGA plastic hood and the silly little 15W bulb that comes with it. I have no idea what spectrum that is, but it is pretty "white". I also have it growing in my 26 Bowfront under 110W of mixed full spectrum and actinic. (55W actinic03 and 55W full spectrum) In my Sump-zilla, it is growing under a 65W Lights of America fixture at 6500K. Chaeto grows well for me under this same lighting.

I think 65K is just fine for growing plants and macro algae. It is real yellow/green and not very pleasing light to the eye (my eye anyway) but in a sump or fuge...who cares? As long as it is growing right?

Reverse photo period is simple and looks like this on paper:

10:00 AM - Display lights on*
10:00 PM - Display lights go off
10:00 PM - Refugium lights turn on
10:00 AM - Refugium lights turn off

*Some folks have their display lighting such that actinic lighting comes on first, then MH..and at the end, MH shuts off first, and an hour or so later, actinics shut off. Whatever works for you, or whatever your system is built to do. My display does NOT have independent switching for MH and Actinic. My old reef did.

In this scenario, SOME part of your system is illuminated 24/7. This keeps the pH swings to a bare minimum.

During the "light phase" when macro is using the light to photosynthesize, the macro uses CO2 and in the end, creates a byproduct...Oxygen. This is a good thing. However, the decrease in CO2 and related increase in O2 means and increase in pH. This level in your system during the "Day" is, or should be, in and around 8.2 correct? This is what you check against with your kits. However, during the dark phase, the opposite happens. CO2 is expelled and O2 is consumed. This causes a drop in the pH. Test your system in the middle of the day, and again well after the lights have shut off, and you will see the difference yourself.

By keeping a second "chamber" that is lit opposite of that within your display, you are in essence, creating a system whereby one part of the cycle is happening in area A, while the second is occurring in section B. This creates a "wash" of sorts where the pH should remain constant throughout the system.

Does any of this make sense to you? I'm kind of just regurgitating what I think I know :)

Here..this will really confuse us :) 6H2O + 6 CO2 + energy --> C6H12O6 + O2

Dave

[JustDavidP]

Wow :D I had to take the laptop into a meeting... a boring one at that... and was hammering out my reply during that meeting. Who'da thunk that all you folks would jump all over this topic :)

John...they are all "correct" and as a matter of fact, layed out their answers quickly and clearly :) I, on the other hand, rambled...and could cause some confusion.... skip over my volume of detritus and listen to the masses. They've "Got it goin on"

Dave

[DJGonzo69]

Dave, Christi & Rob,
Makes it all clear. Lots of great info!!! I will do a test comparison to see my PH when lights are on & when they are off. Gotta get another timer. Man I should buy stocks in these things..LOL

[JustDavidP]

Makes it all clear.

:o really? When I read my own posts..I became confused :)

Glad to help!

Dave

[DJGonzo69]

Clear as a 10K MH :-)

[AdamJ]

6H2O + 6 CO2 + energy (light) --> C6H12O6 + O2 =durign "day" (algae)
02 + C6H12O6 --> 6H2O + 6CO2 + Energy (ATP)= All the time (everybody)

since you can see that you are only producing O2 (and using CO2) durign the day in your tank, and your usign up that O2 and creatign CO2 all the time, it is obvious that the reactions will not be balanced for the 24hr period. this inbalance, could result in a neagtive effects in your tank over a period of time, and you would be forced into makign constant ajustments to your water.

the reverse photo period allows for your refigium to balance this with its production durign the night period of your main tank. so basically in essence the equations become equal and its all good.

[Rob]

lol.. dave, i had a feeling you would get into a detailed response (which is a good thing, that i also enjoy reading) so i figured i would try to get some main points out to get the basic understanding there...

:)

[DJGonzo69]

So is it a good idea to make the size of your fuge as close as possible to your display tank, so that the O2 & CO2 production is even? Especially when you are trying to counter react each other to make it a wash?

[Rob]

don't get me wrong, bigger is better, but the water volume is not directly related..

remember, your fuge is going to be packed with photosynthetic macro algae, and there will be much more photorespiration per gallon, than in your tank.

so while having a large fuge is a better thing, its not a "requirement"

[DJGonzo69]

Since size does not matter when it comes to water volume, is there a chance of getting a OD on Macro? With over production of O2 & CO2? What would be a safe amount of Macro in the fuge? Lets just say for now Cheato's is being used as a Macro algae. Golf ball size, Tennis ball size, basketball size :-) I know you have to also trim the macro from time to time.

[Reefbaby]

I haven't myself cultivated macroalgae in a refugium yet, but soon hope to. I've heard/read that you have to harvest the Macro occassionally - firstly, to remove the accumulated phosphate and secondly, so that the macro doesn't go sexual.

Please correct me here if I'm wrong!!!

[JustDavidP]

No corrections needed...you are correct. The way of harvesting and the frequency depends on the macro type, llighting etc. but yes, you will want to thin it out.

If large "colonies" of macro go sexual, it makes a mess of the water, and fast.

Dave

[JustDavidP]

BTW... if at all possible, find chaetomorpha...it's (said in Bah-stin accent) "wicked easy" to grow, able to adjust to different lighting, and doesn't (as far as I know...maybe more or less a "less likely") go sexual and foul your water.

[DJGonzo69]

Ok will do. I will get some Cheatos's & monitor the growth & trim out as needed. How about the leafy Calurpa, not the grape calurpa. Can the leafy one go sexual on you?
Thx,
John

[AdamJ]

John,

really please just get the chaeto, caulerpa is a horrible invasive species along our coast, and it is generally "not kewl" in the marine sciences circle. I will never use caulerpa, because the trade in a invasive spp will never help our coatal waters.

[kj_yoda]

Thanks for the infomration. I have chaeto now and will only use that.

[DJGonzo69]

Adam- Oh yeah I'm only going to use Cheato's. I'm just asking about the Calurpa, because I know it's illegal to have now because of the problems we have in the california coast. It's sad because I see alot in LFS.

[JustDavidP]

I use caulerpa only because of my seahorses. They don't hitch on chaeto :) I'd not deal with the caulerpa (any species) if I didn't have to. In any case, I'm a bigger fan of C. Prolifera rather than the bubbles or razors. It looks more like a sea grass and my ponies love it. I just can't find any locally right now.

D