Rare Wild Caught Fish Tragedy

[bubbletip]

I have just experienced a real tragedy and feel terrible for it as I should know better. I am new to these forums and I am surprised that I am sharing and embarrased that I let this happen. Our blue spotted jawfish, Jake, committed suicide this evening, or should I call it involuntary fish slaughter on my part. Jake was the only non captive bred animal in my tanks. I do feel I take a major interest in conservation and yet I decide to house a fish that is caught in only two areas in the world and only just recently after a long period of not seeing them around.

I first saw a blue spotted jawfish in a 125G aquarium, owned by the reefer(Jason) that taught me to reef ten years ago. This little guy was the most personable fish I ever have visited or owned. I have not seen one in person until recently in a local LFS I have been going to for many years. This fellow reefer had explained that Jake had never jumped while in the store and was regularly hand fed and I know he had been there for 5 weeks or more. I somehow convinced myself that we should not have a problem housing Jake in my 65 Gallon with canopy. I was in literal shock when I noticed no Jake in the tank and shortly after found him on the tile floor. I honestly feel like the dumbest %&*&@#%$ @$^@&$%&@ %@&%*&* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said earlier, this rare fish does not deserve my stupidity for not housing it properly when I well knew that it was possible for them to jump. I guess the best thing I can do is learn from this experience where if I ever have any doubt that I might not have the safest habitat for an animal, that I should give up the idea until I do or leave the animal for someone that can.

I sincerely apologize to Jake and all other(few) blue spots out there as well as every reefer that has successfully kept this and other rare fish and corals seen in the hobby. This is not an experience I would wish upon anyone and deeply regret my own selfishness. I am starting this post so that all of those reefers out there considering there new purchases may really consider the importance of housing these animals appropriately so that the depletion of rare species of fish and reef animals does not continue. I hope this post may encourage others to post similar experiences so that the stories can be told, reefers can make a rational decision, and those enticing LFS visits may turn into more walks out the door so that Jake and others can be saved from horrible tragedies that certainly don't have to happen. Sometimes we learn lessons much deeper than others as it took ten years for this really to set in. I am truly always learning:(

[wwest]

sorry for your lose bubbletip. i too had a fish jump ship, i had a firefish that i found on the floor. so i know sorta know how you feel. but everyone makes mistakes and it takes mistakes to truely learn.

[CarmieJo]

Jim, I am sorry to hear of your loss. Thank you for sharing your story and helping prevent another tragedy.

[JR Aquatics]

Sorry about your loss. I too recently lost a fire fish. You live and you learn, its just too bad that it is at a living creatures fate. The next day I laid eggcrate over my tank to deture any other intentional jumpers.

[bubbletip]

Thank you for all of your support everyone. I have heard of people using egg crate, which makes me feel worse as I have a six foot piece of egg crate five feet away from the tank. I have read that these blue spots can get through egg crate as well. I have also read that after they have settled in and made their burrows, it is very rare for them to jump. I have no other animal in the tank that would create a stressful situation where Jake would need to jump. He had several burrows and seemed pretty happy. It is just so disappointing and hard to go through. Some reefers may think it is just another fish, but I definitely look at it differently. I feel responsible for the animals in my tanks and do not handle reef death very well in anyone's tanks.

[wildeone]

Sorry for the loss. I have always been lucky and not had any jumpers in my tank as I have no top what so ever. I have learned from your post to be careful with any new species I introduce.

[JR Aquatics]

I really wouldn't beat your self over it. Just learn as all of us do. The chances of a fish making it threw the eggcrate are slim. Eggcrate seems to be the best thing to cover our tanks with since it disipates heat and helps direct light into the tank.

[bubbletip]

JR,

I am sorry to disagree with you, but I do not feel egg crate is the best option. There are other options that I can think of if you really wanted to do it right. Anyone should either put some glass with no openings over the tank or put some fine mesh screening over your egg crate. I think you are missing the point here. People have reported that these particular fish have been known to jump out of egg crate. So then, the responsible thing to do is to follow best practice and make sure that this does not happen regardless of if you don't have a "jumper," supposeably. Obviously this applies to blue spots, jawfish, and many gobies that reefers love.

I will give you an example of another species of fish that will probably soon be rare in the hobby, but still so many reefers feel it is o.k. to house them in an inappropriate situation. How many of those pretty Mandarin Dragonets have died because some daddy's girl thought it was so cute that they should defintely get one for their 30 gallon reef tank. We all know that it may work out for a while but is definitely not for the long term without the right husbandry applied. If anything should be learned it is that our selfishness and consistent convincing that everything should be fine is just irresponsible and frowned upon by many, I would hope.

[JR Aquatics]

Glass is hard to keep clean and insolates the heat in the tank. Screen cuts down on the light that we reefers pay so much for to run(IMO becomes a waiste of resources). You are right though eggcrate is not the best option it would be an enclosed canopy with protective lenses on your fixtures.

[V]

Glass is hard to keep clean and insolates the heat in the tank. Screen cuts down on the light that we reefers pay so much for to run(IMO becomes a waiste of resources). You are right though eggcrate is not the best option it would be an enclosed canopy with protective lenses on your fixtures.

cut the screens on the lights, run glass over the tank, & there are no holes to jump out of & less evap that happens to the main!
its an american way to leave everything open! i;ll be the first to admit glass tanks or glass hooded tanks are more work to keep clean, but they stop animals from jumping, they slow evaporation, & they still alow for gas exchange it they are not totally closed. u have to remember gas is lighter than air, it will excape the laws of oxygen!
personly, as much as a loss this was, your a victom of your own cultual practises

[JR Aquatics]

My tank needs evaporation to add my kalk top off water. And if your tank is located in an area were the outside temp is cooler than the tanks then condisation builds on the glass top, and reflects light away from your reef inhabitants. Or like you said Variann, I just might be accustom to the American way.

[V]

like anything, with evap comes salt creap, u will experience it in tha area's exposed, thus that is where your greatest gas exchange occures. depending on the size or your system, kalk is a short to medium term solution of prividing the best delivery means of the 3 Pillars of stabiltiy!, but with the same breath, your top-offs will always be less of kalk than normal because there is less evap in an enclosed system, rather than open top! its also highly based on what your animals are using, not what your system as a whole is losing!
as sound as the american way seems, when u look at it logicly, u are forever chasing your own tail to keep ahead of demand! i wish u well non the less with this mentality, it has served ameraican well for so long is not funny!!
i dont like using the word "but" but temp has so much to do with the evap of any tanks that the difference between us is we have our tanks in a position where we see them in an everyday room, we dont have basements or maybe garages to fill with tanks, we would not look after them otherwise, the only tanks we have are in our faces 24/7, so we have them at conditions that we are mainly acustom to! heat during winter, cooler during summer! its without question some of us have experienced losses due to extreme heat, but they are remote cases a best these days! anyone serous enough will have a back -up i n place just in case. personally i have a $1000 cooling unit, if the sh%t hits the fan! so the subject is left open for futher discussion!

[bubbletip]

I want to make it clear that in no way am I telling anyone what to do. To each their own. I can't stop anyone from buying these animals; however I can and will inform conscientious reefers that are concerned for the well being of Blue Spots and other rare fish in that they need and should receive special consideration before keeping them captive. I am simply stating that my personal feeling is that if a reefer ever questions their ability to house an animal properly, than they should give up the idea of keeping one all together. For all of those, that do not beleive in this philosophy, I truly hope everything works out for you and mostly for the well being of the animals you are keeping. :roll:

[Rob]

first of i want to express my sympathies for your loss, i know when you put this much time effort into making sure you are doing the right thing, only to find a mistake, it can be hard. that said, as long as we learn, and help others prevent repeating these mistakes we can all help each other out.

that said, lets look at the subject that has arisen..
to go topless or use a top.
this is a debate very similar to the debates about skimming, substrate depth or consistency
my opinion on this is the same as the rest, neither way is "right" both work and have appropriately places where they can be applied, and both have pros and cons

Using glass/plexi glass Tops
Pros
can keep debris out of tank
can keep inhabitants in the tank

Cons
reduces gas exchange
extra cleaning maintenance
decreases evaporation (which can lead to heat issues)
can reduce light penetration

Top-less
Pros
promotes gas exchange
promotes reduced temp VIA evaporation
allows for great heat reduction

Cons
debris can get in the tank
inhabitants can get out

now all that said, its not possible for one to be always better than the other.
in some cases you might not need the cooling, evaporation, gas exchange etc that's comes with topless tanks, in some cases that might be needed.

one option that helps settle in the middle, is to use plexiglass with a series of small holes drilled in to it.
you still have to keep it clean all the time but it will keep things in the tank while allowing for gas exchange cooling evaporation etc.

[bubbletip]

Thank you for your sympathies Rob, and for a very useful suggestion. I never thought of the plexiglass top. That would definitely work. I personally don't like using tops for evaporative cooling reasons. For me, I will just be more careful about the types of inhabitants I bring into my tanks.

What do you think about mesh screening used for window screens fastened to egg crate as an alternative?

[Rob]

yes, it still falls victim of blocking some light, when its dirty or has salt spray on it.

but it does help with alot of the problems while not limiting evap or gas exchange as much as a solid top

[Astrivian]

one option that helps settle in the middle, is to use plexiglass with a series of small holes drilled in to it.
you still have to keep it clean all the time but it will keep things in the tank while allowing for gas exchange cooling evaporation etc.

Quick question about this plexi idea. I tried a thin piece on my FW discus tank a while back and the darn thing kept curling. From -- to U. However, this was a fairly thin piece, maybe 1/8 of an inch thick (that's about 3 mm for you metrics out there ;). Might that have been the problem? I haven't tried again with a thicker (say 1/2 inch, or 6 mm) piece because of simple lazyness.

Also, my sympathies bubbletip. I have had a few cat treats come flying out of my FW tank from time to time (two African butterflies to be exact), hence the old plexi top. However, the whole wild-caught thing does make me think. After all, it is a fish that was taken, likely as a baby, from its home and stuffed in a glass can. The only way i can make myself feel good about participating in this is if i try everything possible to a) try to find tank bred first, b) take the best care of it as i can, c) make certain it wasn't captured in some cruel or destructive manner (viz. cyanide). All that said, i definatly agree that some fatalities are necessary in the learning process. I wouldn't beat your self up too much, this sort of thing happens for the very purpose of teaching us this stuff. For example, if the fish had not jumped, would we be having this discussion about tops?

[bubbletip]

Thanks for your support Astrivian. I feel a little better about the situation a day later. I still am not stomaching it very well, but I promise, no more self abuse:w000t: I am glad a positive spin came out of this and maybe it has gotten some to thinking of some great ideas.

[fat walrus]

bubbletip,

my sympathies.

i use a solid top wooden canopy. any vent holes and opened areas where the equipment overhang at the back of the tank are covered with screen.

[Danamck]

This thread shows that there is no single correct way to set up a succesful reef tank. It also shows how powerful these forums can be for exchanging ideas. Bubbletip, I too am sorry for the loss. I felt the same way when I found my thriving Moorish Idol being eaten alive by a hermit crab (the only one in the tank and a fraction of the size of the MI.) I blamed myself for my stupidity. And also felt bad about what I did to the hermit crab in my anger. But I did learn from the experience. I believe it made me a more conscientious marine aquarist (hey - that would be a great name for a book - oh it already is!)

[Reefbaby]

bubbletip - I'm sorry for your loss, but am glad that there are so many conscientious reefers out there.

Just last week, my husband and I set up the canister filter for me to do a thorough tank cleaning. We left the hose hooked up for a few minutes while we got our daughter to bed. We've done it many many times before. But, for some reason, on this occassion one of our clown fish must have gone too close to the opening of the hose or something. When I came back about 10 minutes later, he was stuck in the tubing and already dead! I also felt horrible and my husband, who set the system up, felt totally sick about it.

It happens. It's part of the unfortunately consequence of trying to keep something so natural and so free in the confined spaces of our homes. But, I believe that our love for the ocean and its inhabitants helps to make many more people aware of the beauty within those great waters and hopefully more environmentally friendly and conscientious.

Happy reefing my friends!

[bubbletip]

Thanks again for all the support everyone. This truly is a great reefer community.

Reefbaby,

I am sorry about your clownfish. My male clown use to get sucked up through the teeth of my overflow, over my u tube to my sump in my 65 when I first started out ten years ago. I am lucky that he is still alive today and survived a dozen plunges through my overflow down into my sump. That was pretty scary back then. Resilient little guy.

[Astrivian]

I am sorry about your clownfish. My male clown use to get sucked up through the teeth of my overflow, over my u tube to my sump in my 65 when I first started out ten years ago. I am lucky that he is still alive today and survived a dozen plunges through my overflow down into my sump. That was pretty scary back then. Resilient little guy.

:rotfl: Maybe he just wanted to ride the water slide a few times! I read a crazy post on wetwebmedia a while back where this dude's clown loach (FW fish) swam up his return pipes and into an adjacent tank (i assume he had a T on the return somewhere). Of course, there were no loaches in the second tank for a reason and it ate all his snails. Aparantly this loach was quite large for the return line too (they can reach about a foot in length) and could barely fit in the tube. Talk about a fish adventure!

[Danamck]

I had an ex-boss who told me a tale of a time when he had 2 aquariums, one salt and one fresh. One was in the dining room and one in the living room. They faced each other. In the fresh was a single occupant - an octopus (not sure of the species). The fresh has your usual mix of community fish.

My ex-boss starting noticing that he was loosing fish in the freshwater tank, but could find no bodies or evidence of death. One night he was up late and walked into the room and noticed the floor was wet. When he turned on the lights, he found the octopus had climbed out of his tank and was helping himself to some of the freshwater fish.

There's no doubting the inteligence and resourcefulness of an octopus, and at the time I believed his story. Perhaps with age I have become more pesimistic, becuase as I type this, I wonder if he was just pulling my leg.

[bubbletip]

Wow, those are both pretty incredible stories. I am not shocked by the Octopus story. Man, I wonder how many have successfully kept them. I hear they are major Houdini's and you basically need a tightly locked box to hold them in. Sure I would love to observe one in a tank for a while, but I don't think I would or could ever really have one. Have you seen the thread on Reef Central of the guy that had an octopus as a hitchhiker in his live rock. Now that's what I call finding something in your tank.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=873176

I have known clown loaches in friend's tanks and they do get pretty big quickly. They also know what they want and if it is snails, they will find a way. I guess you'll never know what some of these animals will do, and often it is good things happening and hopefully inside the tanks.;)

[Danamck]

Yes - that RC thread is incredible! I don't think I could ever keep one because, in addition to the husbandry challenges, they are such inteligent creatures.

[gwen_o_lyn]

Sorry to hear Jim.

My BIL lost his blue jaw the same way- it jumped through eggcrate. So once he ordered the next one, he was planning to use mesh or a screen- something to make sure it never happens again.

[bubbletip]

BIL? Until it actually happens, egg crate or not, it is hard to think it might happen to you. It's good to see he is going to be extra cautious now. Good luck with his Blue Jaw! ;)

[gwen_o_lyn]

Brother-In-Law- his name is sscheitel (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member.php?u=647) here...
He isn't an "official" BIL, but close enuff.

I need to ask him for an update on his blue jaw- I'm sure it's good or I would have heard otherwise. He has had it almost 2 months now.