New Setup and to the forum (hi)

[cmay]

Hi,

I'm a total beginner in marine fish so please except my apologies for my lack of terminology.

I would like to thank Rob and others on a fantastic site and the pod cast are great, I now enjoy my long drive into work now :)

I've fallen for the beauty of marine life, the colours, coral, fish and the fact I can set up and watch my own eco system in my home.

My objective is to set up a my tank with live rock, fish, SPS/LPS coral and various other live stock which will support and live with each other.

I'm planning to set my rock on a raised egg island (using spray bar going down and under the rock to improve water flow and filtration through the rock) and position water flow jets in various other places (close system)

Im planning os a 4" LDSB for my biological filter and animals to borrow ?

After the water has reached the correct PH levels and temp im going to add the live DSB and rock, leave for a good 2 months before introducing fish and probably another 6 months or more before coral, im under the impression the slower the better in order for the eco system to adapt and produce optimum cycling, also get to watch my live rock come alive

Im currently designing my sump which is limited to space, looking to add two story with refugium (slowly fed from T junction going from overflow)

32mm x 2 overflows
20mm x 2 current close loops


Equipment:

54 gal gal tank
2nd hand Deltec APF600 protein skimmer
3 x 4k ltr h pumps (I can pull/reduce flow if required)
2nd hand Deltec APF600 protein skimmer

4 stage RO unit from RO-MAN / inline TDS meter.

Loads of piping and various valves/couplers......

PHP & salinity meter

2 x MH 14k (250w)
2 X T5 Aqua Medic - Full Spectrum White, marine (39W)
2 x T5 Aqua Medic - Blue , marine (39W)

2 x T5 blues (to use in the morning to bring the light slowly back up to full daylight (MH) and back down to blues and then no light) if you see what im saying

I couldn't believe how expensive the light system was that I required, so I have purchased ballast, ignition and parts separately and I will carry out DIY on this.

I'm happy to say im nearly there, im planning on drilling my tank this weekend and continues with the research.

If any one has any suggestion or can see where im going completely wrong please let me know.

[V]

welcome cmay

uve done the hardest things already, plan & track down all the equiptment.
everything u mentioned is ether cover in the podcasts or avail in the forums. when u start u can post your progress & we can help u along the way, or give u advice in advance to the next step! so far bud ur looking on track!

[cmay]

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm going through all the podcast at the mo, I was surprised how technical reef/marine keeping was when I first started looking into the hobby, this also added to the appeal for me.

Am I right in saying I can document my build in the "Member Tank Projects" forum

[V]

Am I right in saying I can document my build in the "Member Tank Projects" forum

if u click the "Tank Journals" button on the nav bar on the left it will take u to where u can create your thread

[cmay]

Cool, I'm looking forward to the build, thanks for the advise.

[wildeone]

Welcome to the club cmay. We look forward to seeing you progress and helping you out any way we can. From what I see, you have a good plan and understand that taking it slow is best. That is the first two steps to an awesome tank!

[m8298]

Hey cmay, welcome aboard. You're gonna love it here.

[Kevin McG]

Welcome to TR Chris, this is a great resource in our hobby :)

Rob and all the mods keep this place rocking with all kinds of goodies

[wwest]

Welcome cmay!

[JR Aquatics]

WELCOME CHRIS, You have joined a community with a great load of information, and great people too! You are 10 steps ahead of were I was when I started my first reef tank (planning, equipment and all), I just got lucky everthing turned out. Look forward to hearing your experience and progress

[pham411]

wow from the look of your setup, it sounds like you have an impressive display.

[cmay]

Welcome to the club cmay. We look forward to seeing you progress and helping you out any way we can.

Wow guys, you have made me feel really welcomed, ive been looking for a site where I can settle down for good and I feel this maybe the one :) especially with such a great format.

"wildeone" you tank journal is great, really helps when your new to the hobby and your tying to get tips and ideas.

I'm looking forward to reading other tank journals.

[Rob]

cmay, welcome (again, i think.. ;) )

looks like you are on a role...
my only comment is regarding the spray bars under the LR...
getting good water flow around the rocks in important, yes.. but dont try and force, or push water "through" the LR.. this prevents them from being effective in job...

other than that, you should be good...

[cmay]

dont try and force, or push water "through" the LR.. this prevents them from being effective in job...

I think I understand where your coming from, I imagine I want good flow around the rock in order to catch/filter the water, however will forcing the flow cause the opposite effect ??

My plan was to position rock up and around a spray bar for support and to push water flow through the rock.

Am I in danger of clogging the rock and would lowering flow outwards through the rock change the effect, or do you think it would be best not to use a spray bar through the middle of the rock formation.

[V]

firstly u will need to have a syphon break below the water surface with a spray bar dropping down as far the bottom! the size of the spray bar, how much water u plan to redirrect from the return & the overall length plays a huge part in how it operates & at what flow rate is achieved

i would imagine the current also depends on what animals will reside on your island!

[Amphibious]

http://www.theculturedreef.com/welcome.gif to Talking Reef Forum and Podcast, cmay. I think you are going to like it here. Lots of nice people, good advice and if we are not accurate in our answers someone chimes in and corrects us. We all learn.

I think you are a leg and an arm up on starting this exciting hobby. You have done some homework. There's always more to learn. Below are links to two very informative threads I think you will benefit from. Read them when you have time. You will gain more insight and be able to make decisions based on two different but very successful systems.

http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412

http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909

Again, welcome to TR.

Dick

[gwen_o_lyn]

Welcome to TR Chris!! :)

[Rob]

just remember the LR doesn't filter water like a filter pad does. its not meant to remove particulate matter.
its meant to remove stuff at a chemical level.

personally, i thing it would be a better idea to build a PVC frame for the rock, and have the spray bars separate and removable

[cmay]

Im so near, yet so far from my build ;)

Thanks for the links Dick I just had a quick look, I'm slightly concerned as I get exited about pictures of good looking pipework hmmm :) I guess im hooked on the hobby.

I will fully read the articles and probably come back with some questions, If I get time later I will try and get my diagrams uploaded and post a link and hopefully get some opinions.

Rob - do you mean loose the close loop system altogether :(

[fat walrus]

Rob - do you mean loose the close loop system altogether :(
i believe Rob said no such thing about eliminating your closed loop system. i think Rob is suggesting NOT to include your spray bars as part of the structural support for your rocks......and to make these separate spray bars removeable so you can clean the the spraybars when it is required.

sorry Rob, just read this, and can't resist replying.....did't mean to speak for you.

[Rob]

no problem blubber..
thats exactly what i was saying...

i find that the spray bars occasionally get clogged, if buried under your rock, you'll never get them out, and if they ever need to be replaced, that's not going to be fun either.

[cmay]

i believe Rob said no such thing about eliminating your closed loop system.


surely not biting my head off already ;) I wasn’t sure if rob meant separate from the close loop altogether via removable power heads with spray bars or due to the size of my tank close loop maybe overkill.

I'm a beginner :)

[cmay]

Thanks Rob, I was planning to hard plumb the spray bar, im trying my best to plan with forward thinking in mind, so I really appreciate everyone's opinions.

I need to research more articles on exactly the function of LR and how best to utilise with current flow.

You have also made me think more about the whole idea of raised egg crate island, there maybe a small possibility of critters getting trapped under the egg crate and dieing.

[cmay]

You will gain more insight and be able to make decisions based on two different but very successful systems.

http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412

http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909

Again, welcome to TR.

Dick

Dick, I was fascinated by your thread and what a thread it was.

Your tank is everything I hope to achieve "as if"

I love the idea of using pipe for raising my LR off my DSB and the placing of the spray bar to keep sand from building up underneath the LR.

The advantages seem greater then the idea I was planning to go with.

Was it difficult to get the flow just right in odder to keep a space between the bottom of your LR and DSB ??

I also started to think what would happen if critters got stuck under my egg crate after Rob pointed out the problems I would have if I needed to clean the spray bar.

I haven't read your complete thread and I will need to re-read in order for the information to soak in, then I will start on Joes thread "The 12 week cycle"

I'm so pleased I have taken my time and spoken to experts like yourself otherwise I would had made so many mistakes.

I'm so impressed...

[Rob]

dont worry about Mr Walrus, he meant no harm or insult.. hes is a good guy.

yes, planning forward is very important.
the philosophy i work from (or try to as much as possible) is:
"plan for the worst, hope for the best"
plan so that you can disconnect, remove, replace, clean, fix, etc EVERY component possible. if you plan this out, then "if" it is every needed it will be much easier. using extra ball valves and union in your plumbing is a great example.

Closed loop
i think a closed loop is a great idea, so if you were planning, i would continue with it. they are great for generating extra current in the tank. you can pisotion it along the top of the tank, around the top like a circle (see reefbaby's tank journal) along tha back top, or along the bottom back (see my plumbing video). it really matters what else you are using in the tank to generate current.

LR
personally, i think that Ampibious' method is pretty darn good, and while it might be a bit harder than using an egg create table, it would prevent the trapping you are thinking of. all that said, keep this in mind.
you can work for hours, days or weeks planning to have you LR and substrate positioned perfectly, then you are going to be frustrated as all heck to find out it doesn't care what you planned. various critters and current will ultimately determine how it will lay down. do the best you can, but don't over think it. its not "critical" that the LR have perfect flow over all surfaces (including the bottom).
don't get em wrong, the more surface are you can expose the better, but don't think its bad if you have some rocks that don't have the bottom or lower sides exposed.

I'm very impressed with your research and planning efforts, kudos to you, it is a true sign of a successful hobbyist.

[V]

no head biting here, unless u forget to invite us to the bbq when your tanks a master piece.
trust me, once u get to know us, u will see the context in which we talk. look at me for example, total goof with a bad memory, but i manage to squeeze a few words out.

but i'll switch into serious mode for a sec ok, and say this once only> "Your tank is everything I hope to achieve "as if" playing around or not, i dont realy want to see a comment like this again, the cool thing about us is we are only limited by your own mind> & u , already in the early stage have shown foward thinking, which is more than i can say for myself & 95% of us out there in start-up land! so be happy and shout me a round of drinks would u...lol

[cmay]

That’s what I like a friendly forum just like robs last podcast, which reminds me I must post a review.

Ok veriann, let me change my statement "Your tank is everything I WILL achieve" with allot of help from you all.

Going back to your method of raised rock have you ever had any issues which you rectified in future projects that might be worth me knowing about.

For instance does the substrate grain size play a big factor as I have been blown away about so many opinions on the best grain size.

I've planned my closed loop systems with ball valves before every outlet/jet in order to adjust current individually, I will be using two closed loops with separate pumps (I plan to connect the pumps to timers so I can randomize current flow to try and mimic natural flow.

With a few adjustments I can incorporate the system utilised by yourself.

Rob:

I have found it very difficult settling on anyone method, I continue to come across more useful information and advise.

Your right, I should not try to over think everything.

I have been looking everywhere in the uk to buy spray nozzles, after watching your pluming vid I now know why I have an oven in my kitchen ;) fantastic tip.

Thanks for all the engorgement and drinks are on me (all round)

[Rob]

I now know why I have an oven in my kitchen fantastic tip.
ya know.. it took me 5 years to figure out what that white box was..
i was thinking, why do i need a big box that heats up to 500F...
then it hit me.. the make spray nozzles...:rotfl:
:D

[cmay]

why do i need a big box that heats up to 500F...
then it hit me.. the make spray nozzles...

I don’t suppose you have any idea on what the machine that fills up with water and spins does, I reckon its for "Hatching Brine Shrimp" but like I said before im no expert :p

Seriously,,, it was a very good tip...

[fat walrus]

surely not biting my head off already ;) I wasn’t sure if rob meant separate from the close loop altogether via removable power heads with spray bars or due to the size of my tank close loop maybe overkill.

I'm a beginner :)
cmay, i'm sorry if i came across rude. i meant no disrepect. after reading your response, i see that my word selection was not well thought out. please do not hold it against me, i was just trying to be helpful...........:(

[Rob]

I don’t suppose you have any idea on what the machine that fills up with water and spins does, I reckon its for "Hatching Brine Shrimp" but like I said before im no expert :p

Seriously,,, it was a very good tip...
no way.. silly...
thats where you culture phyto in bulk...
geez... beginners... lmao...
then there is the one that heats up and spins, thats for drying SW soaked towels..
and the large cold box, used for storing various cold and frozen shopped up and blended seafoods, 2 liter bottles of greenwater, and containers of brine eggs.. :D

[Raggamuffin]

Welcome to TR Chris! (sorry I'm late). I work too much :( but how else can I afford such wonderful toys :D

[cmay]

cmay, i'm sorry if i came across rude. i meant no disrepect. after reading your response, i see that my word selection was not well thought out. please do not hold it against me, i was just trying to be helpful...........:(


No cause not... I used a wink smile to make light my comment, I guess I was being to sensitive, now I feel guilty for making you feel you needed to apologise.

Drinks all-round again.


Rob:

I just don’t know what I would do with out your expertise, however my wife didn’t seem to impressed with your answers ;) Unfortuantly my wife has no idea the lenghts we need to go to :)

[fat walrus]

No cause not... I used a wink smile to make light my comment, I guess I was being to sensitive, now I feel guilty for making you feel you needed to apologise.

Drinks all-round again.
thanks, i feel a lot better. hobbyist helping hobbyist is the goal. some hobbyists (like me) are just more blunt than other. lol. cheers. and i'll take up your offer about the drinks. :agree:

[Rob]

yeah, i wasn't sure if how you took, it, i just wanted to make sure you took it in jest, as i was sure that's how it was meant.. anyway.. that's water under the hood.. ;)

yeah, but seriously, i was forced to get my own fridge to keep my cold/frozen stuff in, since she was sick of opening the fridge and seeing bottles of greenwater and chopped up fish food mush... ;)
an then i got my own Tupperware set because i kept using her stuff as specimen containers.. lol

[gwen_o_lyn]

For instance does the substrate grain size play a big factor as I have been blown away about so many opinions on the best grain size.



I think I'm buzzing after reading this thread!! :D

Avoid crushed coral and get the smaller sugar sized sand. Crushed coral traps detritus- the icky stuff you want out of your tank.

Oh and that bigger box in the kitchen that heats stuff up super quick is for those suction cups that loose their stick. Rob taught me that!

[Amphibious]

Ya gotta follow Gwenns advice cmay. Otherwise yer in for heartaches down the pike.

Thanks, Gwenn and Rob for the clue about suction cup rejuvination.

[Rob]

yea Gwen, thats the "suction cup fixer upper"

[cmay]

yeah, i wasn't sure if how you took, it, i just wanted to make sure you took it in jest, as i was sure that's how it was meant.. anyway.. that's water under the hood.. ;)

For real... I did mean my comment in jest.. totally water under the hood

-----

Well I have reassured my wife I wont be taking no more advise regarding tumble drying SW or using the sink as a Refugium, but then I went and spoilt it and took my MP3 to bed with me and she went ballistic "what's a guy to do" :rotfl:

Sugar grain has now been written down on my tank plan, thanks Gwen,,, im nearly there.

I'm planning to start my tank journal tomorrow, so im looking forward to that and even more advice.

[m8298]

Yeah, takin Gwens advice gets to be pretty easy, there's somethin about a girl who giggles a lot, frags her own coral, and intalls her own microwave. lol

I totally agree, sugar-sized has worked the best for me. As long as you have a good cleanup crew, it's maintenance free.

[m8298]

Besides, she has an awesome set of zoas...

[cmay]

Welcome to TR Chris! (sorry I'm late). I work too much :( but how else can I afford such wonderful toys :D


Hi,

Work seems to get in the way of my new hobby :(

[V]

I think I'm buzzing after reading this thread!! :D

oh yeah, keep the miscommunication coming, the drinks are drying up here...lol

[fat walrus]

I think I'm buzzing

Oh and that bigger box in the kitchen that heats stuff up super quick!
okay gwen, we all know you can install a microwave after a few drinks.
quit trying to show us up!

[cmay]

oh yeah, keep the miscommunication coming, the drinks are drying up here...lol

Yea I think this forum is terrible, sorry I meant incredible "dam that’s another round on me" :p

Right I must go out and find someone to drill my tank, as I rather not do it myself, and then I will move my build on to the tank journal.

[V]

lol, thats more like it, my throat was getting abit dry!
do u have tank builders in the area? i get my tank builder to do all that stuff! but then again i use glass! i have found a cheaper source, but like anything its hard to stray from quality when u find it!
good luck on the drilling! looking forward to see your creation


Yea I think this forum is terrible, sorry I meant incredible "dam that’s another round on me" :p

Right I must go out and find someone to drill my tank, as I rather not do it myself, and then I will move my build on to the tank journal.

[PiscesGirl]

Hi cmay,
Welcome to the site...I saw you posted on my thread so I thought I'd return the welcome!

Your thread seems like a lot more fun than mine...round after round of drinks?
:)

I hope my tank turns out half as nice as yours "as if"....seriously pipes and closed loop systems and things that sound like "wha wha whaa wha" (voice of the teacher from peanuts)
I love this hobby and have always wanted a salt tank...now that I have one I can't believe it! :)
I just wish some of this stuff made more sense to me, well it will eventually...I hope.
Okay, sorry to rant on your thread I really just wanted to welcome you and say that it seems like you are really on track to having a great system in place! Way to go!

Resa

[cmay]

Hi cmay,
Welcome to the site...I saw you posted on my thread so I thought I'd return the welcome!

Resa

Thanks for the reply :)

Sound like your having a rough time at the mo, im sure everyone will guide you through.

I'm looking forward to getting my tank sorted, im even excited about producing RO water (once I've rigged it up) than watching my cycle and then all the little life turning up on my LR. Having my tank fully established well... I'll never want to go back to work :)

[cmay]

Well I've had an unproductive frustrating day, all the glass cutters with over a Billion years experience (in their adverts) couldn’t drill my tank.

LFS could only advise me to use a local glass cutter.

I have read many hobbyist having great results on cutting holes, so I have decided to buy the equipment and cut the holes myself.

I'm at work tomorrow so I might look for some local clubs for recommendations.

[gwen_o_lyn]

Yeah, takin Gwens advice gets to be pretty easy, there's somethin about a girl who giggles a lot, frags her own coral, and intalls her own microwave. lol


ha ha :p


Besides, she has an awesome set of zoas...

I got 3 more types of zoas at the ARC=Atlanta Reef Club meeting last night!! :D Very very nice ones too!!


I just wish some of this stuff made more sense to me, well it will eventually...I hope.

Give it time and it will. Lots of stuff in this hobby is very complicated, just takes time and lots of reading.

[fat walrus]

a lot of glass cutters don't want to take the risk of breaking the tank, or be blamed for a later tank failure. i had to sign a waiver to get one drilled years ago.

[m8298]

If you do try to drill it yourself, don't push on it, or use hardly any pressure, and use a spray bottle of water to keep the area being drilled wet the whole time. And even still, it takes some luck.

[gwen_o_lyn]

How can he tell if the glass is tempered? If the tank is tempered, it's only the bottom, correct?

[cmay]

How can he tell if the glass is tempered? If the tank is tempered, it's only the bottom, correct?

Thanks Gwen, I will reply tomorrow when I get home from work, goodnight all.

[fat walrus]

How can he tell if the glass is tempered? If the tank is tempered, it's only the bottom, correct?
i don't know how to tell the difference, but only the bottom of 55 gallons and up....usually.

[Amphibious]

If a tank has tempered glass it is only the bottom and it should have a sticker on it indicating tempered glass. I'm sure if the sticker is missing and you asked a glass dealer to drill, he would be able to tell by looking. They deal with tempered all the time.

[fat walrus]

If a tank has tempered glass it is only the bottom and it should have a sticker on it indicating tempered glass. I'm sure if the sticker is missing and you asked a glass dealer to drill, he would be able to tell by looking. They deal with tempered all the time.
Amp, do you know if it is mpossible to drill tempered, or is it just really difficult?

[Amphibious]

As far as I know, it is impossible. It will break into a million pieces.

[fat walrus]

As far as I know, it is impossible. It will break into a million pieces.
that's what i thought. can't understand how something that brittle can be stronger.

[cmay]

Looks as if I may have tempered glass, I checked out Google and found:

"tempered glass is made when cooled rapidly and evenly causing internal
stress. This stress is what makes the glass break resistant. The stress must be over
come before the glass will break. If it were cut the uniform stress would not be uniform. the whole structure becomes unbalanced causing a catastrophic failure "

My glass isn't thick more like car window thickness

So I feel slightly deflated, back to the drawing board..

My main concern about overflow box is the siphon braking and not pulling enough water down the pipe.

[Amphibious]

cmay,

All is not lost. Simply drill your hole in the back wall put your bulkhead fitting in, put a street elbow into the inside of the tank, build your overflow as usual and use a Durso overflow drain. Run the outside piping down the back to your sump. Now all that depends on your stand and where the tank is going to set.

[fat walrus]

cmay, Amphipbious is right. check out the thread : wildeone's latest passion.

[cmay]

My original plan was to drill two holes in the top back glass panel, fit bulk heads, use elbow pointing up in the water or insert internal overflow/skim trap, flow would then run out and down the back of the tank into the sump.

I was also considering pointing elbows down into the water but connecting both of them together with a long piece of piping with slits cut out to skim as much surface area as possible.

Amp.... do you mean I can still cut through the tanks glass (top back panel)

[fat walrus]

drilling the back panel is very commonly done, since it is not tempered. if you look at wildone's thread, he even have pictures of it being drilled.

[Amphibious]

Absolutely. Only the bottom is tempered.

[cmay]

Yea... Wildone's flow is exactly what im trying to achieve, however the glass looks thicker at the back then my tank.

it’s a possibility my entire tank is tempered ?

I guess I will need someone to take a look or try and contact the manufactures, unfortunately its not a well known make.

[cmay]

Absolutely. Only the bottom is tempered.

sorry i posted before i saw your reply, now i feel happy :) thanks.....

Any opinions on joining my two overflows together with a long piece of piping with slits cut out to achieve maximum surface skim or is my tank to small to be that worried about skimming surface area??

[fat walrus]

Yea... Wildone's flow is exactly what im trying to achieve, however the glass looks thicker at the back then my tank.

it’s a possibility my entire tank is tempered ?

I guess I will need someone to take a look or try and contact the manufactures, unfortunately its not a well known make.
i have never seen a glass tank with tempered sides, never heard of one either. wildeones glass is thicker only because his tank is larger.......more water volume requires heavier glass.

[cmay]

i have never seen a glass tank with tempered sides, never heard of one either. wildeones glass is thicker only because his tank is larger.......more water volume requires heavier glass.


yea that makes perfect sense..

[Raggamuffin]

that's what i thought. can't understand how something that brittle can be stronger.


Pretty simple Walrus, as a welder I deal with this 24/7 when it comes to my work.

Example: take a soda straw, and a tooth pick try bending both in half.... which one breaks and which bends? Strength and toughness are 2 diffrent things when used technically, Strength is good but at a certain point not being able to bend means you have to break.

[CarmieJo]

Example: take a soda straw, and a tooth pick try bending both in half.... which one breaks and which bends? Strength and toughness are 2 diffrent things when used technically, Strength is good but at a certain point not being able to bend means you have to break.

That is a great explanation!

[Stevej72]

i have never seen a glass tank with tempered sides, never heard of one either. wildeones glass is thicker only because his tank is larger.......more water volume requires heavier glass.

This is right only the bottom, the sides need to be able to "flex" and if a rock slid and hit the side of your tank the odds are it would crack, if it were tempered the whole side would blow out and all watter would be on the floor in a second. you would have more time to react witrh a crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggamuffin
Example: take a soda straw, and a tooth pick try bending both in half.... which one breaks and which bends? Strength and toughness are 2 diffrent things when used technically, Strength is good but at a certain point not being able to bend means you have to break.

Verry true

[cmay]

Thanks, I feel confidant that I can drill my tank (side/back)

I cant quite understand why the bottom would only be tempered, you would think the whole tank is at risk, not just the sides.

I guess I can replace the back sheet if all goes wrong :(

[Rob]

think of it this way
the weight of the entire tanks volume is against the bottom pane of glass, its distributed 100% over that one piece.
where the sides only get a percentage of the load.

if you had a cube tank, then the bottom would get all of the downward pressure, where the sides (of equal size) would only get 1/4 of the outward pressure at the bottom of the side pains. as you go up the side, the pressure is reduced.
so from this you see that the bottom must be able to with stand much more "load" than the sides, infact its at least 4X the load, and that doesn't include the weight of the rocks and stuff that don't add load to the sides

this in turn is why the bottom glass is usually tempered on larger tanks