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View Full Version : I have a PH issue and need some help.



wildeone
07-06-2006, 11:32 PM
I have a freshly calibrated PH meter that reads 9.99 in the 10.0 solution and 7.0 in the 7.0 solution. My Ph is reading 7.58 right now and that is after a 10% changeout. Oddly enough, it read higher (7.75) before the change out. I am not sure if that is normal or not.

Now I went out and bought a Salifert KH kit since I didn't trust my Hagen kit. It is reading a KH of 9.9 and an ALK of 3.54.

Other tests include:

Temp: 80.5
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Calcium 400
SG: 1.024What I need help with is:

Do I need to raise my PH. (I assume Yes)
I know there is a KH/ALK/PH relationship and I am afraid to get it out of balance. How do I go about raising the PH to a normal level of 8.1?Thanks in advance.

fat walrus
07-06-2006, 11:39 PM
look into a 2-part buffering system such as SEACHEM'S marine buffer and reefbuilder, or KENT'S ph buffer and coral builder. they have engineered a system where you can bring PH or KH up with minimal impact on each other. are you taking your PH reading midday?

wwest
07-06-2006, 11:39 PM
the way i raise my ph is i added a air pump and a sand stone. i hate the look of it and i am sure everyone with a salt talk does lol. however i hid the tube as best as i could and you can barely see it. when my ph is low i turn it on. mine gets low around 8.0 and i turn it on for about 12 hours and it gets it back up to 8.2. not sure if thats any help but its alot cheaper then ph buffer. i think i paid $10 for my complete air setup.. and i dont have to worry about mixing powder and liquid lol. like i said it doesnt look the best but it works great. thats just my experience.

wwest
07-06-2006, 11:40 PM
FW i have always heard if you bring up the kh to 115 your ph will be 8.2 do you think thats true?

fat walrus
07-06-2006, 11:45 PM
FW i have always heard if you bring up the kh to 115 your ph will be 8.2 do you think thats true?
yes, in theory. but you can have high KH and still show low PH because at night or when there is a higher concentration of CO2. that is why you show higher PH reading after running your airstone.

wwest
07-06-2006, 11:47 PM
the CO2 release of the water brings up the ph?

sorry wildeone for highjacking..

fat walrus
07-06-2006, 11:53 PM
the release of CO2 from water will allow PH to rise without gas influence.

wildeone
07-07-2006, 12:01 AM
No problem, its all about the learning.

Thanks for the reply blubber. I take my Ph reading every 3 minutes, but it was just calibrated again tonight. I will post the 24 hour results tomorrow night here. I made a mistake earlier though the PH is not 7.58, but 7.87. So , I think I will watch it for 24 hours and see what we end up with midday tomorrow.

I will also look into that Seachem buffer if I need to.

fat walrus
07-07-2006, 12:06 AM
wildeone, just thought i'll point out if you did not know already that the PH probes reads best if the water is not too turbulent and are free of micro-bubbles.

V
07-07-2006, 10:34 AM
Wildone i assuming your testing alk in Meq/L, not dkh?
if this is the case ur alk level is ok!

If its geraman deg then the main key is to concentrate on the alk, cause it wouldn;t be acting as a buffer against the PH swings.but the measurement has a decimal point so im asuming the first one!
Your Ca levels are good at the moment, so no red flags are poping up just yet, and essecially cause the Alk level is ok your not likely to experince a drop of of carbons any time soon. so yeah, the main problem is the PH
U could try blubbers scientificly proven formula for short term, although 2 things to keep in mind here.

1) Look at the price tag, cause u could get away logicly with Seachem Reef Builder with B_carb soda as your 2nd part cause thats all it is anyways!

2)Sodium and bromide are typicly high in any buffering compond we add to the tanks, prolonged use of these 2 & 3 part mixtures can increase level beyond the natral level in nature, which in my opioion is not a good thing!
everyone knows what sodium is, but bromide u may or may not be aware of & is abit more interesting.
Without the proper amounts of bromide, iodide cannot be metabolized into proper use by your animals. it joins the other in the table as a minor Ion, but still has to have its place respectfully!

My honest suggestion. & i might get some back lash cause i cant remember what u dose, but if your dosing robs calcium hydroxide method id drip it at night when the Ph drops natrally to even it out abit more. that combined with a quick boost of sodium bicarb & a reverse lighting period in the sump/fuge should solve all your problems

wildeone
07-07-2006, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the input Veriann, I value your opinion. Before I respond let me update...

I cleaned my probe in Vinegar and calibrated again based on a suggestion by blubber. It read 7.86 after the recalibration.

Here is a chart showing the last 18 hours:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i233/wildeone/PH.png

Lights are on around 8AM and off around 8PM

As you can see, my PH is still low.



Veriann - I am using a SSalifert kit and the chart I have says KH in DKH is 9.9 and my Alk in meq/L is 3.54. I am dosing...nothing at this time. And I am running a reverse photo period for the sump.

I am treading in an area I am not familiar with and don't quite grasp. Sodium Bicarb can raise my PH without affecting my CA or ALK? I think I need to read more, but I am worried about my critters as I have lost a shrimp and I just want things back in line quickly. I tend to take to long if I start reading and researching.

I have some Red Sea Reef Success Buffer in hand that came with my test kits. It says 5ml will treat 60 gallons. And it also says it contains Sodium Bicarb. Would 10% change outs every other day rais the PH as well?

Thanks to all!

V
07-07-2006, 10:53 PM
looking at your chart(although its looks to display only 12h) u have a gradual decline over night, and really dips right before lights on! but in reality its not dropping that much at all, & is following abit behind the temp.
its just the fact remains that the PH value is lower than the rest.
i dont understand how are u keeping the Ca level so high if your not dosing anything?
your alks is slightly down, but only a fraction on what is concidered the norm, but within safe boundries!
bumping with bi carb is a small time solution, its doesn't have any major draw backs that im aware of! in saying that i would use other means to stabilise the PH long term! but in the short term i would use it to jump small incrimental steps over the next few day to a week, & see how it levels off! any rise in alk is not going to do any harm, but it wont be noticable anyways!.

doing change overs will raise or lower your levels depending on the salt mix, ur best getting a local to run with u on this

sorry it took so long to respond, my boy thought it fun to unturn a big plant pot in the house, little terror i tell u!:mad:

wildeone
07-07-2006, 11:32 PM
Thanks for the repyl. Let me see if I have all of this down.

I will double check the Ca levels using a seperate test kit (which I have).

I could bump up using the Buffer I have for a temporary fix.

Change outs may help but the mix makes the difference (as in brand of mix)?

May want to get a local reefer to give me a hand.

You were not happy with the fact that you got dirt all over your house?


Did I get it all?

BTW it is 18 hours on the chart. Don't let that 7 at the beginniing fool you. It is July 7. It starts a midnight and ends at 6pm.

V
07-07-2006, 11:47 PM
the local reef can be someone on here, its just a run down on your mix's in regards to ph

wildeone
07-08-2006, 12:02 AM
Ok here is what I have.

I checked the Ca level and found that maybe I should clean my tubes. I ran the test using test tubes that I cleaned real well earlier today in vinegar and both test kits now show 280 to 300 Ca level. I also ran a PH test from both kits, one shows 8.2 and the other 8.1. My prbe shows 7.85. I think I would tend to believe two seperate test kits and discount the probe. I am a little embarassed as i didn't know until earlier today that it is good to clean you tubes with vinegar. I usually just rinsed with tank water.

I will jump on the Neptune Systems forum on RC and throw up a post before I go any further. What do you think?

V
07-08-2006, 12:09 AM
Ok here is what I have.

I checked the Ca level and found that maybe I should clean my tubes. I ran the test using test tubes that I cleaned real well earlier today in vinegar and both test kits now show 280 to 300 Ca level. I also ran a PH test from both kits, one shows 8.2 and the other 8.1. My prbe shows 7.85. I think I would tend to believe two seperate test kits and discount the probe. I am a little embarassed as i didn't know until earlier today that it is good to clean you tubes with vinegar. I usually just rinsed with tank water.

I will jump on the Neptune Systems forum on RC and throw up a post before I go any further. What do you think?


i think that sounds more like it!
take the value average over the 3 ph and ur in the green!
clean with vin & hot water, & keep the reagents away from heat & light & u cant go wrong

i dont know about the probe failures or calabration requirements for neptune, if the neptune forum is where to find this info, or give a shout out to others of the same controller then i say go for it!

fat walrus
07-08-2006, 12:13 AM
sometimes electronic gadgets are quirky. never get rid of your test kits.

wildeone
07-08-2006, 12:14 AM
Well, look what i found.....

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=880356

It seems Neptune has an known issue with a ground loop in the serial cable that connects to my PC. I tested a cup of tankwater outside the tank and the PH meter reads 8.03 (lights are out now) and if I unplug the serial connection between the neptune and my PC it reads 8,01.

Now, how to fix it.

wwest
07-08-2006, 12:17 AM
Can you replace the serial cable?

fat walrus
07-08-2006, 12:18 AM
would grounding tank work, if you have not already done so?

wildeone
07-08-2006, 12:26 AM
Hmm I don't know. I have an Electrical Engineer at work I will pass this on to. Neptune has a Ground Isolation Serial Connector now, but it will cost me. Wouldn't you think they would include one if this is an issue?

It is not the cable, it is the application unfortunatly.

wildeone
07-08-2006, 12:28 AM
Thanks to all who have helped me. I will leave it unplugged and check my readings tomorrow. I will post them here. I do need to tackle the calcium issue. Maybe its time for the DIY Kalkwasser system...my wife will be so excited! LOL

wwest
07-08-2006, 12:31 AM
just do what i do say "no i didnt pay a dime for it, i traded for it" lol :) j/k

fat walrus
07-08-2006, 12:45 AM
wildeone, that is not right if they sell an intrument that does not work, and then charge you for equipment upgrade to fix it.

V
07-08-2006, 12:50 AM
at least kalks not expensive, u can pick up half the stuff when u go grocery shopping so she'll never know, thats untill the huge bottle of vinager gets placed on the counter with a notion to drip some on your fries like the brits do!

V
07-09-2006, 07:31 AM
wildman, hows the tank parameters today?

wildeone
07-09-2006, 09:54 AM
My PH hit 8.08 today and dropped to 7.86 overnight. I am still waiting on a response in the Neptune Forum on RC. I will keep the thread updated as I have new information.

wildeone
07-09-2006, 10:02 AM
BTW I think I will start my Kalk tonight if I can find the pickling lime locally...and I think I can!

drummereef
08-01-2006, 03:11 PM
I may be wrong, but Neptune sell the ground isolated serial connector (seripc9). Could be a grounding issue between the neptune and the serial connection on the PC.

hope this helps - maybe?

wildeone
08-01-2006, 06:11 PM
Yeah drummer, that is the issue that I am having. I have yet to get the opto isolation module, I hate to spend th $40. Did you get your Neptune?

CarmieJo
08-01-2006, 09:32 PM
Hi Drummereef :welcome: to TR.

drummereef
08-01-2006, 09:41 PM
Wildeone - Yes I got the Aquacontroller and I LOOOOVE it!!! :D The only thing I could kick my self over its not getting one sooner. I'll have the computer hooked up by the weekend with Aquanotes 3.2 installed and hopefully be able to view the parameters over the net. I'll let you know how that goes - my computer skills are not the best... ;)

CarmieJo - Thank YOU! This is a cool place.

fat walrus
08-01-2006, 09:52 PM
welcome to TR, drummereef

drummereef
08-01-2006, 09:54 PM
Thank YOU 2!!! :)