Skimmer Placement

[Bishop]

I've got a bit of a dillema regarding the placement of my skimmer.

As you may have seen in the tank project section, I'm setting up a 7ft reeft tank. Now things would be really easy if I didn't need to get a second sump tank to place the skimmer in. Let me explain.

The tank drains via two 2" overflow bulkheads that are soon to be drilled in the end wall of the tank, at a height to allow maximum drainage equal to the volume of the current sump/trickle filter.

The drains gravity feed two spray arms that allow water to trickle through to the sump, where water is returned to the tank via a 4000lph pump.

The owner of the LFS (with 15 years of experience) says putting the protein skimmer in the same sump as the return pump (i.e. AFTER the trickle filter compartment) will still allow it to function fine, despite the fact it has been through the bio-balls etc.

I'm skeptical.

Surely the skimmer would be far more efficient before this trickle compartment, although this would mean me having to put an intermediate tank between the drains and the trickle filter.

Anyone have any comments? I can supply photos if they'd help!

Scott.

[Rob]

scott, you are right..
the skimmers most effective placement is actually to be placed where it is the first device to proccess the water from the overflows. that said, it will still be effective in the position recommended, just not "as" effective. will the difference be worth a redesign, probably not.

but i do have to ask, why bio-balls in a reef tank? or is this going to be a FO tank.
bio-balls are known to cause elevated nitrate levels which can be problematic in tanks where invertabrates are kept (which includes coral)

[Bishop]

Wow, I wasn't aware of that, an no one has ever suggested it to be a problem.

Here's the layout of the current sump...

http://www.talkingreef.com/albums/album04/sump_layout.jpg

Will this be a problem? I plan on a very light fish load for a 7ft tank:

1 Flame Hawk
8-10 Green Chromis
2 Clowns
4 Gobies
2-3 Tangs

I actually want a mostly coral and invert tank.

Scott.

P.S. That's what this site is for - you learn something every day!

[Rob]

Wow, I wasn't aware of that, an no one has ever suggested it to be a problem.
yes, i have bentioned it on many shows, also..
here are the details...
the bio-balls (and bio-wheel filters) create a large aerobic enviroment. in this enviroment, the filtering bacteria that thrive (aerobic bacteria) are the ones that convert nitrite into nitrate. (see Podcast episode 2 for detials on the nitrogen cycle) now this is a good thing, and a needed step in the cycle, however, these types of fitlers are designed to proccess large amounts of ammonia, such as would be found in a FO tank.
the reason these are used in FO tanks is that nitrite is very deadly to fish, but nitrates are not.. most fish can tolerate moderate and even relativley high amounts of nitrates.
the problem is that invertebrates like clams, shrimp, and coral cannot tolerate nitrate at all.



Will this be a problem? I plan on a very light fish load for a 7ft tank:

1 Flame Hawk
8-10 Green Chromis
2 Clowns
4 Gobies
2-3 Tangs

I actually want a mostly coral and invert tank.

Scott.

P.S. That's what this site is for - you learn something every day!

yes, you shoudl be fine with all the things stated above, however, i would look at dropping the wet/dry and setting up a refugium instead. and stock it with lots of macro algae.

hope this helps, let em know if you have further questions.

[Bishop]

Do I re-do the whole sump arrangement? I've got a friend who is running an almost identical setup without problems (and has been for a couple of years).

I guess (refer to my image above) I could lift the supporting ledge that is there at the moment, reduce the layers of bio-cubes to *one* and then have a live rock/macro algae refugium underneath. The water would still enter via the spray arms, through one layer of bio-cubes and then hit the sump/refugium. I guess I've just always been used to having a trickle filter somewhere in the system.

The 'problem' that I might have with a refugium is lighting and keeping it clean. Would I need HQIs for it or would fluoros be sufficient?

Do you have any links to examples of what the best setup would be?

Scott.

[Rob]

Do I re-do the whole sump arrangement? I've got a friend who is running an almost identical setup without problems (and has been for a couple of years).

I guess (refer to my image above) I could lift the supporting ledge that is there at the moment, reduce the layers of bio-cubes to *one* and then have a live rock/macro algae refugium underneath. The water would still enter via the spray arms, through one layer of bio-cubes and then hit the sump/refugium. I guess I've just always been used to having a trickle filter somewhere in the system.

that will likely work fine, its very similiar to what i did, i use a wet/dry, that has been converted to a sump. you can find pictures here (http://www.talkingreef.com/modules.php?set_albumName=robs-refugium&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)


The 'problem' that I might have with a refugium is lighting and keeping it clean. Would I need HQIs for it or would fluoros be sufficient?

Do you have any links to examples of what the best setup would be?

Scott.

no, regular normal output florescence are enough, or even PCs if you have them.. you dont need anythign special.

you could also just get a 20 gallon long glass tank and use that, there are many options...

[gwen_o_lyn]

through the bio-balls

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_17_3.gif ('http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSYYYYYYCRUS')http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif ('http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSYYYYYYCRUS') Yeah I've read many posts *no 1st hand experience personally* about how bioballs cause huge nitrate problems... natural filtration is the best imo= Live rock and a kick-ass skimmer is all u need... maybe carbon every now and then if needed.


yes, i have bentioned it on many shows, also..
So I'm not the only one drifting in and out, huh??

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_8_12v.gif ('http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSYYYYYYCRUS') <----- Scott and I listening to ur shows!! he he j/k Rob!!

[Bishop]

OK, I rang around a few friends today and had two come over - both of which run bio-ball trickle filters in their coral tanks.

Both of them said in theory, of course bio balls will be a nitrate factory and hence are a danger to corals and inverts.

-BUT-

In a mature tank, especially anything of decent size, it is their experience that due to the large buffer available, you should never see nitrate levels come up due to a trickle filter. Both agreed that the best way to go is to run a wet/dry but also have macro-algae in the display tank.

It's a matter of taste I guess. If you don't like the idea of caulerpa waving back and forth to the music then having them in the sump is the go. Personally I always planned on a small forest at the drain end of the tank - I feel it gives a nice balance to the show and food for the vego's.

Thoughts?

Scott.

[Rob]

welll i cant argue with experience.
but what i can say is that your macro alage will NOT last long in your tank. if you plan on having Tangs, then will eat it up in minutes.
so that might be something to consider also.

[gman0526]

welll i cant argue with experience.
but what i can say is that your macro alage will NOT last long in your tank. if you plan on having Tangs, then will eat it up in minutes.
so that might be something to consider also.

Or the other way around they won't touch the caulerpa and end up with a forest all over your tank. A reason to contain macro in a separate compartment is to be able to trim up w/o disturbing the display. Some macros are a PIA to get rid off, not to mention that there's always the possibility of caulerpa going sexual and nuking everything in the tank.

A safer method in the long run would be to, like Rob stated, house the algae in a separate tank, also chaetomorpha algae is by far the safest to use. HTH

BTW, FWIW I have 9 yrs of experience in the hobby, if it counts ;)

[Rob]

thanks gman, for ringing in.
yes, i have heard from people that have tangs that wont touch some types of macro..
so yes, there are many reasons to house it in a seperate are area...

[gwen_o_lyn]

Gman- Welcome to TR!!

[gman0526]

Ty guys, very nice site you have here , the podcasts are great!!!