this has been bugging me for a couple of weeks now....

we were looking at a quite large maroon clownfish....no intentions of buying, just had never seen one so large

anyways, the guy starts telling me how it was wild caught, where it was from and how he prefers wildcaught over tankbred...they are more healthy & on & on....he doesn't carry tankbred

he then went on to say the same about the corals...wildcaught corals are more healthy than fragging & blah, bah, blah

i have to admit, that i wasn't paying close attention to him, because by that point is was a little disgusted, because i believe whenever possible one should opt towards frags & tankbred....i believe we need to preserve whenever possible and that the arguement of wild caught being more healthy is false

anyways, i thought i would ask, are there others out there that prefer wildcaught?...and if so, why?

i know this could be a controversial topic, but am just curious

honestly im not sure its that controversial, i have always thought when you can get captive bred fish or coral you should.

they are proven to be healthier and less prone to disease. and with coral, they adapt to tank conditions much better and faster

one day, all wild specimens will be illegal.....i've seen this direction for years. my favorite lfs buys captive bred even though he would lose sales because captive bred is much more expensive. my personal experience is that wild corals and fish are much more susceptible to diseases, carry parasites, are much more stressed, and are much pickier in diet. maybe that lfs have never been into a livestock wholesaler..especially after unpacking a wild shipment. does he even know the process of fish and coral collection, harsh temporary conditions, and shipping logistics?

Same as rob. whenever tank bred specimens of anything are available i wil get it.

I agree, tank bred fish & frags when available

I love frags and love my clarkii (ORA) clown. The only wild caught I would do is a aggressive tank like triggers or harlequin tusks, lions and others. but thats about it, I would still be tickled to see these captive bred or raised. now that I would pay for.

see, i thought most would look at it the same i did

walrus, i agree with ya......someday here soon, it will all be illegal

maybe veriann can confirm this, i think in australia they trying to fish protected under the animal protection laws that protect cats, dogs & such....as far as i am concerned, great idea

they have been doing fish studies that show that these animals are thinking feeling creatures....they need to be protected, imho

from what i know about australia, they are super protective about the reef. no corals, and now getting a personifer or scribbled angel is like pulling teeth. can't blame them, they had that crown of thorns starfish scare, the caulerpa taxifolia episode, global bleaching, and that's not counting the horse problems, rabbit epidemic and countless other scenarios. indonesia at this point is studying plans to eradicate all coral and reef fish trade by 2010. i can go on forever, but i'll piss someone off sooner or later.

all valid points of view, i have to agree with most! dreams, like anywhere, we face the hard fact that the government of the day dictates policy. we have some strict laws in areas, & believe me some people try to take more that is deem the law & bam, the EPA & Parks&wildlife will if caught red handed will take the boat the car, & if u re-offend to many times they will try to take your house & throw u in jail. but when they take the boat u were riding in, most learn to take the hit & move to another area or stop totally! we rape & pillage the reefs in general way to easy & without regard for how long it takes to replace that vacant area. even trees cleared in the forest can grow back quicker that the reefs.
im not going to get into a really big "welcome to my brain" spill, but i believe reef keepings should have a licence grading system & registration like reptiles, if u cant demenstate u can look after them, u dont get a licence!simple as that!
it opens up the black market more this way i guess, but considering they have to cover the tracks well if they want to continue harvesting in that area, its prob going to do less damage in the long run!
the sea to me is such a wonderful element of nature,& LFS although i know they need to make a living, but they sell to a mother or father of the kid who screams nemo, mum i want nemo. knowing full well that fish bowl size tank they just purchased cause they dont even want to hear of anything more expensive than that, is going to crash & the fish dead within a few weeks at best!
to put it simply as i can, we or nature or both are causing the heating of the oceans in places where reefs grow, and species of corals are being wiped out to the point of extinction without our dirrect interaction cause something as simple as a rise in temp can not be adapted to!

so, yes after all im for & against wildcaught! tank breed is prefered where ever & when ever possible, but on the flip side, if corals continue to die in the wild, maybe some would benifit in the hands of the experienced among us so we can ensure their continued survival!

I always ask the LFS about the origin of the species I am selecting. I decided early on that I would not purchase any wild caught items. Heck, I actually felt guilty when I had my live rock shipped in because I knew it was wild harvested.

unless u spend the time to seed your own out of limestone or equivilant, i dont see any other choice wildone! dont feel to guilty, ur providing the means to keep them tip top!

unless u spend the time to seed your own out of limestone or equivilant, i dont see any other choice wildone! dont feel to guilty, ur providing the means to keep them tip top!
aragocrete.
60-70% of my rock is home made... cement basically.. :)
http://www.garf.org

aragocrete.
60-70% of my rock is home made... cement basically.. :)
http://www.garf.org
i saw some of these rocks, even painted with calcareus paint. was yours seeded?

I was not as "in to" the reef to do try that right off the bat, but I think I may try that on my next tank.

unless u spend the time to seed your own out of limestone or equivilant, i dont see any other choice wildone! dont feel to guilty, ur providing the means to keep them tip top!

Walt Smith exports lots of man made LR from Fiji that's been curing in the ocean for about a year and a half. Cool stuff and very interesting!

http://www.pacificaquafarms.com/cultured.htm

here is something cool:-)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13300363/?GT1=8211

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Thursday created the world's largest marine protected area — a group of remote Hawaiian islands that cover 84 million acres and are home to 7,000 species of birds, fish and marine mammals, at least a quarter of which are unique to Hawaii.

i saw some of these rocks, even painted with calcareus paint. was yours seeded?
yep.. it was seeded with about 30 Lbs of LR from my old tank when when i moved everything over to the 100

I dont think it'll ever be illegal, for wild caught fish to be sold. Theres too much money involved for that to happen.

dont get me wrong, making ur own rocks is excelant, u can make all the good stuff just the way u imagine it, but aheem! im not one for waiting 9months for my rocks to be 100%safe! id rather put the energy into cooking another youngster just quietly:cool:

i found using base rock to be almost as cheap, and much easier to get and use.. no waiting involved.

that said, Gwen is quite right. many places that harvest LR (NOT ALL) are actually using aquacultured rock.

what they do is get rock from other places, with similar consistencies, and they place then in reef areas. sometimes they string them from ropes to have move surface area open. these are commonly found as having holes right through the middle

i have never heard of this rob, sounds like a fantastic idea, but u would go though some drill bits as a business!
where is this common, i will ask if we do this down here, cause honestly i have never heard it done in the wild before

im not sure exactly but i want to say its common in the florida area.
i rememebr reading and seeing photos about it.

i have never heard of this rob, sounds like a fantastic idea, but u would go though some drill bits as a business!


Walt Smith showed us the video on this- pretty cool. The guy making the rock sculpts them to have holes before the ingredients dry up.

aarr yeah, thanks for thinking for me gwen, if ur making them from scratch, of course u would allow them to be roped

I dont think it'll ever be illegal, for wild caught fish to be sold. Theres too much money involved for that to happen.
that what we said about corals from the Philipines a long time ago. anyone seen a coral from there in the last 15 years? that country was the first one to be raped. how about Mexico...another poor country? all the fish trade has been suspended for the last 3 years....the ones available came through a loophole called "shark by-catch". its going to happen. the reef is becoming a bigger part of awareness for native countries. their tourism business makes the fish trade microscopic.

ur not wrong there, some of the smaller countries with fragile economies rely on tourism to hot spots to keep the country afloat

just remember though fatty, it was their own people ( unlicensed pirates) that destroyed the malau reef... cyanide for thousands of yards. now just a desert waste land. But I do agree with the juxt of the matter. just, I dont see the reefkeeper as a menace to society. As for the florida LR, check out Tampabaysaltwater.com. they have a pretty neat idea going there. Im thinking of these guys for my aggresive 70 in the planning.

the reefkeeper as a menace to society

i will admit that my reefkeeping goes against everything i believe......frankly, i try not to keep animals that i believe belong in the wild....and i have pets, all kinds of them.....on some level, i guess, that makes me a hypocrite

that said, of course we are a threat......more out of ignorance than anything else.....you can see it everytime you walk into a petco and see fish that you know don't belong there....like a panther grouper......this fish belongs in a 300g tank.....how many are sold everyday to people that have 30g tanks, or even 100g tanks?....why?.....because they don't know or maybe they just don't care

also, catching this fish is very distructive to the reefs.....but there they are & we keep buying them

if no one was there to buy the fish, it wouldn't be offered for sale....so, yes, we contribute......we may not like to admit it, but we do

okay, stepping off my soapbox

sometimes when your starving & theres little else work, people can make immoral choices to stay alive! its sad, but sometimes to the many its not overly important how, just as long as the basic needs are met. although in saying this, there is always someone who knows better in the background pulling the strings, and /or they know what they are doing is wrong, but the money makes them overly greedy

veriann, i can't disagree w/ you...i have known some really good people that have been forced to make really tough choices based on need......who am i to judge?

my only point was that each of plays a part

don' t forget that the aquarium trade brings the most awareness to preserving the reef, and is unjustly blamed for its destruction. i can go on and put everyone to sleep with details....so i'll just let it go.

so i guess the only way is to become orsome reefers so we dont need to double dip unness. cause of our oversite in a duty of care!:doh: this in theory in an ideal world, & as a wholeshould stem the tide alittle longer ! i wish it to be true, but passion & drive aren't overnight celebraties

one aspect of reefkeeping is the knowledge that trickles back to the efforts of preservation. at the end of they day, who knows more about requirements of corals, someone like sprung or bornemann.........or some biologist who can tell you the size of a whale anus?

rob, can we track down the biologist who first pulled out the 1meter ruler in the name of science:roll: should make an interesting vidcast on location!

no one hold me back, i'm going IN!........veriann don't let go of my ankle.

ur a sick puppy blubber, id at least need afew more stiff shots of scotch to attemp that!:agree:

haha....it is all in the name of science, and FOSTERS.