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V
06-08-2006, 12:49 AM
ive been doing some research into a lagoon style or &that bare bottom stuff i was rambling about when i started here, i came accross this posting by Crazy Trigger some time back, its kinda long, sausage about that, but i wanted to see what peoples current views are on the subject.
ok here goes, i bet after the paste it will be a mile long!

*** Putting on my anti-flame gear first ***


I was actually going to post this on an "active" thread in Dr. Ron's forum that I started earlier this week. I wanted to get my points across but knew that the flame throwers would be out in full force and I'd have no backing at all. At least here in the Reef Discussion there's a better chance of getting a small following once the flamers come out

OK here's what I was going to post there.....

I think a deep sandbed can be VERY functional. My question is....for how long can it be functional before it turns bad?
I did alot of searching on the board over the past few days before posting this so I come somewhat prepared. There are loads of people on the board with bare bottom or shallow beds. That doesn't mean it's right or the only way to go. I'm just stating what I observed.

I am not saying "Bare bottom is the best." I'm just voicing an opinion of why I think a deep bed could potentially be bad. If you can tell me that I am wrong, and why, I will graciously listen. Basically what it comes down to is that a topic like this is trouble and usually ends up with someone flaming someone and so on and so on. No one wants to shout it from the roof-tops "I HAVE A BARE BOTTOM REEF TANK!!!" -- "YAHOOOOOO!!!!! I RUN A
BERLIN SYSTEM!!!!" (Modified Berlin System is with sand).
That's because everyone will reply and sing the praises of having a DSB, at the same time putting down that dude's bare bottom tank that's been successful for 10 years.

Either way, if your current set up works and it ain't broke, don't fix it. I do however come with warnings of an aged sandbed becoming a toxic waste dump! I have a 2-3 inch bed now. I saw hydrogen sulfide and guess what -- I WANT IT OUT!!!!! AND FAST!!!! There are plenty of worms and critters going through it and yet my sand still looks like a dump! This is NOT something that I feel would benefit MY system in ANY way and it's just my opinion. Maybe you want hyrodgen sulfide in your tank. I don't
want it in mine nor do I want to fuel it by having 4 inches of sand for it to blossom in.

According to Dr. Ron, every system has it when you run a DSB. Sorry, I don't want it. Something will eventually expell it into the tank! Thanks, but no thanks....

Anyway, in reading these posts that I found while searching around, I saw a couple of people say that it is recommended to siphon out all the sand from 1/4 of your tank each year and then slide the rest of the sand over, cover with either new sand or live sand. If that is the case then that has got to tell you something right there! An old sandbed is a bad one, maybe? Are we aiding our tanks in being toilets? Most deep bed advocates say "For it to work, it has to be set up right." How many people do you think have their beds set up right? Half, less than half? or even less than that? What about the people that started with CC and then dumped in 100 lbs of southdown on top of that because they read on the board that a DSB is "the only way to go"? Is that a
set up you'd consider a "right set up"? I think not! Then you wonder why their next post a couple of weeks later is "My sand is brown!!!! what can i buy to stir/shift it"?

Have you ever wondered why your tank would look so great for a year or so and then seem to require more work and show signs of decline? I have !!!!! I've seen sudden changes in the health of my tank about once a year. While I can't be sure it's the sandbed, I think my accusations are right on target.
Eventually the "stuff" that gets down there turns into pollutants and that's when the fun begins. Maybe the ones that stir their sand occassionally don't have this problem but I wonder if
those of you who never touch your sand do. Anyone ever think that it's possible for 200lbs (maybe more) of sand to begin to compact in your tank? Can't be - I have life in there constantly stirring it around. I don't think so!

The animals in my tank look extremely healthy right now. Then I look at the sandbed with all it's ugly colored layers and I say "YUCK!" I've seen other people's tanks in the past where they had these "black zones." The tanks were great up until that point. I've seen pristine tanks turn into swamps in the blink of an eye (Ok maybe 2 blinks). With a deep sand bed I think you have a better chance of having a mess on your hands than if you had a one inch bed or less. Granted if you have a bare bottom you have to siphon out detritus or have the right amount of flow in the right places to bring the detritus up and hold it in suspension to be filtered out. It's a fixable thing. I'd rather do weekly cleanings than have that time bomb ticking under all my corals and rock.

People say "well without a DSB you won't have critters!" Either way, if it's critters you want, you'll still get um....
Think about it. Look at your tank. Where do most of your critters live? In the first 1/2 - 1" of sand? In the rocks too maybe? LOL!!!!
Where do you think they come from in the first place? I started MY tank with dead sand and live rock. In a few months the tank was teaming with life!!!!! These animals I view do not live deep deep down in the sand. Do they? Maybe I'm wrong there.
Who knows.....

Are those bristle worms that you just paid $100 for gonna burrow deep into your 4" bed and process those nutrients for the animals in the lower food chain? Are they really gonna keep your sandbed clean and pollutant free? Are they gonna prevent your sand from compacting?

You talk about feeding feeding feeding !!!! If you feed your fish,
your corals will get fed too. Granted I also use DT's and other planktonic foods but that's for my corals, not my sandbed. You have to feed the animals that populate your sandbed so they could multiply and mulitply and have this tremendous power to process more and more and more? If you don't, the bed will starve and you will have no life in the bed to handle the processing.

Well if you did not have a deep bed, you would not have to worry about adding extra food to your tank to feed to your "starving bed." You'd also have less to process!!!! QUOTE UNQUOTE....Geez!!!!!! What a concept. The bed is there for its processing power as well as biodiversity? Correct? STOP FEEDING LIKE A LOONEY AND YOU WON'T NEED TO PROCESS SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought we were raising corals, not sand beds. It seems people spend more time and money on their
sandbeds than the corals that they are trying to raise. Detritivore kits, live sand activators, not to mention Garf grunge, etc etc etc !!!!!!!! If you bought good live rock, you'll have plenty of critters populating your aquarium giving you that bio-diversity that you want.

What happened to plenums? Those were certainly the rage when they first came out. Oh yeah, they were real trendy! My LFS told me if you set up a plenum right (someone says it again), you can go 10 years without a water change!
Boy those went out of style pretty fast. Wonder why? LOL!!!!!!!

Maybe a sterile tank is not want appeals to you or maybe I am a little out of my league here. Either way, it all seems pretty clear to me.

Honestly guys/gals, I am not looking for a flame attack here.
I'd like to hear views from both sides.
Thanks much.

CT

Rob
06-09-2006, 04:35 PM
wow.. there's a lot there.. lots of things to comment on..
there are good points, but some missing points as well.
but in short, hes right, a DSB is a ticking time bomb if not taken care of...
but that said, so is EVERYTHING...

the key is EVERYTHING needs maintenance.. there is no such thing as maint free....

he says

Maybe the ones that stir their sand occasionally don't have this problem but I wonder if those of you who never touch your sand do.

that's like said, im sure the people feed there fish have healthy fish... but what about them people that dont feed them...

well DUH.. if you dont take care of things, sand bed, bare bottom, feeding fish.. you will have issues.

then there is the things talked about feeding your sand bed... ???
who feed there sand bed and

spend more time and money on their
sandbeds than the corals that they are trying to raise

who is doing this.. why would you do this.. i guess i am just not aware of a problem where people put THIS much time, effort, and money into providing food to there sand bed.

ok, thats all for me..

gwen_o_lyn
06-12-2006, 11:32 PM
I broke this off into a new thread since Veriann got a great start on a thread I've been wanting to get going but lack the time.

I have so much to add, but just not the time!! I gotta do some studying too before I start speaking my mind!! :)

I'd like to start this discussion by defining a DSB. What is a DSB to you? When they first came out, a DSB was something that required little maintenance and you did not disturb, nor vacuum. People thought they would just keep going and going and process waste indefinitely.

However, there seems to be a different school of thought. People like Rob say you should stir the DSB to release the built up detritus and avoid the dreaded nutrient sink.

I must get to bed... got lots to talk about here!! :)

Lets have some fun!!

fat walrus
06-12-2006, 11:54 PM
my 2 cents..actually make that 1 cent's worth is that these type of debates existed before and will always continue. it comes down to the tankkeeper. i've have tanks usings almost every system imaginable and have no clear preference for any "one". i've seen friends fail no matter what, and i know this old man with a 180 reef still with the original UG that can keep specimens better than me. i use one simple rule: if i see a successful tank, i give it all due respect, if i see a lousy tank...i don't care what system is used.

Rob
06-13-2006, 12:57 AM
well blubber.. i couldn't say it better myself..

he fact is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
if you are successful with 1 method, then cool..

i think the debate continues do to lack of understanding, and the thought that you can "always get better" and while this is true, there are many ways to get better.

there is so much we dont know about reefkeeping, we are learning new things all the time..

pham411
06-13-2006, 12:58 AM
geez, long post

Rob
06-13-2006, 01:03 AM
I'd like to start this discussion by defining a DSB. What is a DSB to you? When they first came out, a DSB was something that required little maintenance and you did not disturb, nor vacuum. People thought they would just keep going and going and process waste indefinitely.

now what your saying is what people think about a DSB, not what it is.

what people think about, or how they care for a DSB is evolving, and will continue to do so.

but as for what it is...
a DSB is a substrate layer that is deep enough to to contain both aerobic, and anaerobic areas that host various life that can act as an efficient biological filter. <short definition>

my views are mostly outined above.

is a DSB better? simply.. no.
the method you use, depends on what you are keeping, how much work you want to put into it, and how you want to care for you tank. and many other things...

fat walrus
06-13-2006, 01:10 AM
maybe a new podcast: the idiot's guide to lazy-ass reefkeeping.

Rob
06-13-2006, 01:12 AM
lol.. lazy reefing...
thats easy.. dump LOADS of money into automation... :)

otherwise, its going to be work....lol

V
06-13-2006, 07:58 AM
lazy reefing, yeah automation is prob high in this topic, but all the flashing lights & nice turny thingys dont realy mean sqwat if u dont have the knowledge to understand why its doing the things its doing! or better still, how your tank response plays out!

as a DSB, i'll tell u this, if i was a tiny shrimp that fell off my coral perch from heigh up, i know id prefer to hit a fatt bed instead of a few grains of sugar!:p

gwen_o_lyn
06-13-2006, 12:53 PM
as a DSB, i'll tell u this, if i was a tiny shrimp that fell off my coral perch from heigh up, i know id prefer to hit a fatt bed instead of a few grains of sugar!:p

oh but the sugar sounds so much softer!! :D

houtxhere2001
06-13-2006, 08:35 PM
Rob, do you stir your bed? Mine has been in a year and I pretty much have just let it be (Except when the powerhead fell and stired 1/4 of it). Let me know

On a related/unrelated note. I did some trading this weekend with a guy that was BB. I had allways wanted to see one. Well he had some type of plastic foam in the bottom of his tank (white) and If you didn't look real close you would have thought he had very clean sugar fine sand. In fact I knew he had BB and I still looked at the thing for 5 minutes before I could tell for sure. I may give one a try at some point. I have a smaller tank, so I'm fairly used to the weekly water change and fiddle with the tank syndrome.

But please tell me what you do to maintain your DSB - Mine is 6 - 8" deep, both in the tank and in the sump. Noticed tonight I need some crabs in the sump.

Rob
06-13-2006, 08:46 PM
yep, i do...
after about 6-8 months, i started moving things around.. just small areas at a time..

V
06-14-2006, 04:16 AM
do people believe vibration sources have any impact on how the bed moves on its own? i know the top layers get moved via fish & current, prob dirrect intervention also, but even though sand compacts, as with any vibration (prob using the earth as a model here) u get movement, all be it small!

fat walrus
06-14-2006, 04:23 AM
do people believe vibration sources have any impact on how the bed moves on its own? i know the top layers get moved via fish & current, prob dirrect intervention also, but even though sand compacts, as with any vibration (prob using the earth as a model here) u get movement, all be it small!
isn't sand a good insulator against vibration? the deeper down, the less movement because or weight and pressure?

gwen_o_lyn
06-14-2006, 12:59 PM
Well he had some type of plastic foam in the bottom of his tank (white) and If you didn't look real close you would have thought he had very clean sugar fine sand. In fact I knew he had BB and I still looked at the thing for 5 minutes before I could tell for sure. I may give one a try at some point.

These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?

fat walrus
06-15-2006, 03:47 AM
These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?
never seen one, and can't imagine why anyone would use one. with a fake botttom, it would seem like it would negate the possible advantage of going bare-bottom.

V
06-15-2006, 04:09 AM
i believe when done properly they look great. beats bare glass thats for sure, both in looks & safety if somthing should fall. i would prefer a DSB not in the main display but rather in a dedicated area. im almost membered up,just squeezing the last of the green dye out of the notes as we speak, so i'll post a pic of one done proper soon! im a sucker for simple uncluttered reef designes, & this is my personal opinion only folks but why do we feel the need to cram as much as humanly possible in a rockwall! what draws my attention more is a focal piece with minimal background peices! the rest of the stuff can be tucked away in the systems utility bays!

fat walrus
06-15-2006, 04:13 AM
so are you saying that you have one of these phoney bare-bottoms?

V
06-15-2006, 04:23 AM
These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?

why would u want to, its covered with reef save plumbers glue with sand stuck on top, the coralline enhances the look & covers any missed spots on the board.
no, i have smooth coral fragments as of now, but the next tank should look something like this, only maybe round, i dont know! lol, we are getting of DSD topic, but what the hey
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=70766&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200&sid=caf3fbc0f4972b68eec433badf1ec779

fat walrus
06-15-2006, 04:33 AM
i'll stick to real sand. start with a phoney bottom and then you'll have phoney backgrounds. that'll probably lead to phoney corals, and will end up with a tank made by walt disney.

V
06-15-2006, 04:55 AM
yeah, good call, there thruth in that!

Sheol
05-08-2008, 06:08 AM
I'm about to try out a DSB in a new setup, so I was reading through this thread. Rob, when you stir your sand, do you stir all the way to the bottom?

V
05-09-2008, 02:56 AM
sweet, im impressed, such an old thread & your activly searching the rabbit hole. :love!:

Sheol
05-09-2008, 03:32 AM
I know my way around the internetz - fish, however, are still an enigma to me.:fish:

JustDavidP
05-09-2008, 09:32 AM
Jen,

You really just want to use nassarius snails, sand sifting gobies or cucumbers and other sand bed critters that will stir the top inch or so of the sand. If you need or want to, you can use a smallish diameter rod or other tool to do the same.

This area of the bed is aerobic; meaning it is somewhat oxygenated by way of natural stirring and/or water flow. Aerobic areas tend to have a population of bacterium that create secretions which actually cement the sand particles together. Many thought, and some still think, that this cementing is caused by high calcium levels etc. In my reading and studying, I believe that it is, in fact, a byproduct of aerobic bacteria activities. In any case, this process causes a true barrier that water can not penetrate, at least not with ease. THIS is where you have problems with noxious gases and "dead spots" in your sand bed.

The goal of the deep sand bed is to have the deeper ANAEROBIC zones, that help with the colonization of anaerobic bacterium. These bacteria are helpful in turning nitrite into nitrogen gasses. This family of bacteria require very low water flow (typically provided ONLY by diffusion), and very low oxygen levels. If you were to stir too deep in your bed, you'd disrupt this environment, and therefore reduce said colonies of bacteria which would be replaced by AEROBIC bacteria.

It's really kind of neat if you think of the "Cycle" of it:

A) Food waste, fish poop, and other detritus is consumed on the surface of the bed by bacterial activity or by consumption by clean up crews (to include the beloved pods).

B) The top, aerobic layer of sand which is saturated by ammonia and nitrite is cared for by the aerobic bacteria and turned into nitrate.

C) At this point nitrate is being converted and is dawn down into the depth of the sand bed (also by diffusion)

D) This nitrate, at the deeper levels (Anaerobic) is converted into nitrogen gas.

E) The nitrogen gas then works upward through the sandbed and releases into the water column and escapes, in small doses, at the water surface.

Of course, this is all for naught if you don't use the proper sand. You want a particle size that is below 0.2mm but above 0.05mm. This ensures the creation of the anaerobic layers, AND helps (by way of grain size and texture) to foster sand bed fauna, who, in turn, keep the sand bed happy and healthy.

Dave

Sheol
05-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Thanks - I knew about the cycle (which is why I decided to go with DSB - that and my past tank's struggles with high nitrates) and that the bottom layer has anaerobic bacteria, but I also noticed in your initial post you brought up the possibility of the sand bed causing catastrophe after some time, so I wasn't sure if that catastrophe was associated with the buildup of hydrogen sulfide gas or if it was the compacting of the sand, etc., so I thought maybe small areas of the anaerobic areas should disturbed periodically, too, and left to repropagate.

Hopefully my sand is appropriate, because I bought it from Amphibious, and I trust the man! ;)

I didn't know that the cementing effect only occured in aerobic areas, though - thanks!

lReef lKeeper
05-09-2008, 01:55 PM
if you bought it from Dick ... you are getting the good stuff !! i wish i could support him more, but as of right now ... i am mental and word of mouth support.

V
05-09-2008, 10:48 PM
fish poop, Dave

No matter how many times you say that dave it always stiches me with laughter:up:

JustDavidP
05-09-2008, 11:38 PM
What can I say... I'm a rated PG guy...for the most part...well...since Gwennie left us ;)

V
05-09-2008, 11:49 PM
I miss Q, where did she go, & more to the point, every corner of the world has internet, hell , even i have internet! so whats happened dave?

CarmieJo
05-10-2008, 01:41 AM
Jen, I disturb <10% of the exposed sand every time I do a water change. Use a piece of rigid tubing, put your thumb on the top, push it into the sand, let go, see sand suck up in the tube, pull tube out of sand and repeat.


V, Gwen's club is doing MACNA and she is an officer. I an guessing she is BUSY with that.

V
05-10-2008, 01:55 AM
thanks carmie, although its got to be a year since i saw her last shorly, ether that or time has no real substance in my life. :roll:
Someone contact her & ask her to visit after Abra-caMacna events are over.
& she better have a new & improved smiley Gun!

Sheol
05-10-2008, 06:41 AM
Jen, I disturb <10% of the exposed sand every time I do a water change.

Just double checking - you only do <10% of the surface area, not <10% of the depth of the sand, right? And for depth, you only disturb down about an inch or so?

CarmieJo
05-11-2008, 12:44 AM
No I go all the way to the bottom but only in a small portion of my sandbed.

V
05-11-2008, 01:02 AM
as in grid square your bed

fat walrus
05-11-2008, 01:32 AM
I don't do anything with my sand bed. I have cucumbers and nessarius snails.

But of course I am a novice. :o

CarmieJo
05-11-2008, 01:34 AM
I don't do anything with my sand bed. I have cucumbers and nessarius snails.

But of course I am a novice. :o

Well I wish that you would not make yourself so scarce! :missyou:

V
05-11-2008, 01:39 AM
yeah, if your a novice, then im a saint! :huh:

Sheol
05-13-2008, 03:30 AM
I have cucumbers and nessarius snails.

How serious is the danger of cucumbers releasing toxins into your tank (when they get sick) that actually affect the other livestock?

Amphibious
05-14-2008, 10:17 AM
I have never had trouble with the small reef safe cucumbers that dwell in the sand. I have two in my 135 and seldom see them. The cucumber that has a bad reputation is the big Apple cucumber that is gorgeous, hangs on the glass and actively feeds with it's tentacles.

Dick

Sheol
05-14-2008, 03:24 PM
So if I wanted two of the pink cucumbers, you would say that should be safe?

Amphibious
05-14-2008, 06:17 PM
Pink Cucs? That's my favorite color in Cucs. They bring out the female side of my personality. :rotfl: :showoff:

Yes, I think you will be alright.

Dick

rroselavy
05-14-2008, 07:24 PM
Pink Cucs? That's my favorite color in Cucs. They bring out the female side of my personality. :rotfl: :showoff:

Yes, I think you will be alright.

Dick-

i've been avoiding Cukes and other sand sifting denizens because I thought they would make quick work of the micro-fauna we try to foster and recharge. Are you saying the Cukes are worth more to the DSB than the micro-fauna they devour?

My knowledge on the topic is rather spotty...

rroselavy
05-14-2008, 07:37 PM
No I go all the way to the bottom but only in a small portion of my sandbed.

Cut to: A special edition, reef-geek comic in the New Yorker, where an ominous hollow shaft decends into the darkest nether layer, when a nearby anaerobic bacterium says to another: "What the #@*% was that ?!!!"

Amphibious
05-14-2008, 08:06 PM
Dick-

i've been avoiding Cukes and other sand sifting denizens because I thought they would make quick work of the micro-fauna we try to foster and recharge. Are you saying the Cukes are worth more to the DSB than the micro-fauna they devour?

My knowledge on the topic is rather spotty...

I'm not real sure if the cucks eat micro fauna. I'm of the understanding they are detritavores. It's possible in a small tank they are not desirable.


Cut to: A special edition, reef-geek comic in the New Yorker, where an ominous hollow shaft decends into the darkest nether layer, when a nearby anaerobic bacterium says to another: "What the #@*% was that ?!!!"
You mean something like this...

http://theculturedreef.com/sand-3.jpg

Dick

CarmieJo
05-14-2008, 09:22 PM
Pink Cucs? That's my favorite color in Cucs. They bring out the female side of my personality. :rotfl: :showoff:

Yes, I think you will be alright.

Dick

I love a man in touch with his feminine side.

Amphibious
05-14-2008, 09:44 PM
Of everyone on TR that knows me, you Carmie, are the only one that has first hand knowledge of the softer side of me. :love!:

CarmieJo
05-14-2008, 10:18 PM
Aww, I am honored. :love:

rroselavy
05-14-2008, 10:30 PM
You mean something like this...

http://theculturedreef.com/sand-3.jpg

Thanks for the pic. Is there any fear that the prodding may harm any inverts (ie.. burrowing snails, cukes, worms) residing in the top layer of the bed, or do you assume there is little to no carnage?

rroselavy
05-15-2008, 01:06 AM
There is a really good section on Cukes in Anthony Calfo & Bob Fenner's "Reef Invertebrates" book. It even includes a few paragraphs on cooking Cucumbers! Since we are on the topic, I gave the section a good read.

This is what I understand so far: There are 3 common types of Cukes sold in the Aquarium Hobby, detrivorous Holothurids, planktivorous Cucumarids, and the delicate Synaptids ("Medusa worms"). Cukes have been unfairly vilified, but with good husbandry, peaceful tankmates, consistent parameters and 30 day quarantine, a properly chosen species will more likely be more cause for worry when they die of old age (because of decomposition), than for the Holothuroidal toxin they can secrete. Nevertheless, Sea Cucumber innards (sticky filaments secreted when under duress) should not come in contact with human skin. A good photo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sea_cucumber_defence.JPG) of this is available on the Sea Cucumber Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_cucumber).

The detrivorous Holothurids generally seem to be the best choice, since they will consume detritus, stir the top layer of the sand bed, and tend to be the least toxic. Recommended Holothurids include Holothuria floridana, Holothuria thomasi "Tiger Tail" (or similar and more striking Holothuria hilla), or Neothyonidium sp..

As you can probably assume, Cucumarids are largely inappropriate in systems that do not support enough planktonic life to keep these living. These cukes largely remain stationary on or above the sandbed, depending on water flow to bring plankton - offering little or no benefit for our sand beds, and sometimes getting sucked up into unprotected powerheads. Also, you may have to feed a plankton food source to keep them fed. The Yellow Sea Cuke - Colochirus robustus (similar to Pentacta anceps), is one of the hardiest example but will still require a source of plankton and a place of strong waterflow, so an appropriately sized fish-less refugium is in order. The tiny Pseudothyone hitch-hiker cukes are also listed as desirable, while the Sea Apple is the most toxic of the group, and should be avoided by most if not all aquarists.

Synaptids are extremely delicate and as toxic as Sea Apples, and have special feeding requirements - making them very, very difficult even for dedicated systems.

The section is really excellent and goes into far more detail, including selection, acclimation, and handling. I really recommend the book as a whole.

Wetwebmedia also has a few interesting Cuke pages, including a Classification (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seacukes.htm) page.

rroselavy
05-15-2008, 02:20 AM
It seems that the common names for Cucumbers (including Black,Yellow, Tiger Tail) are each attributed to multiple species, and to make matters worse, certain species such as Holothuria floridana - come in a variety of colors. Therefore, the scientific name should be carefully cross-referenced when researching and selecting a specimen.


I'm not real sure if the cucks eat micro fauna. I'm of the understanding they are detritavores. It's possible in a small tank they are not desirable.

I have read that Cucumbers can grow very large, but usually stay smaller in Aquaria. I am not sure if this is accurate, but I just read that a general guideline is 3" of detrivore (Holothurids) cuke per 20 gallons before it starts running out of a food source. The "Reef Invertebrates" book (page 42) mentions that very large Cucumbers may be too much of a "burden" on a DSB. Shimek's "Sand Bed Secrets" article (http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm) includes small sea cucumbers on the diversity list of a healthy "living" sand bed.

V
10-07-2008, 02:31 AM
so how bout some sand bed updates peeps?

Amphibious
10-07-2008, 09:45 AM
Ok V. Here's a current shot of the 5" DSB of Aragonite sugar grained sand in my 135, now 2 1/2 years old.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa152/Amphibious_2007/DSC_0004-12.jpg

It's easy to see the tunnels created by worms as they traverse through the DSB doing their thing.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa152/Amphibious_2007/DSC_0005-7.jpg

On closer inspection, Nitrogen gas bubbles are evident along with a better view of tunnels.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa152/Amphibious_2007/DSC_0005-8.jpg

A close look at one of the worms with feeding appendages extended above the sand searching for food items. A hermit seems to be keeping a watchful eye on things.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/135%20Rock-9.jpg

A reminder of the beginning. Taken about March 15th 2006. Lighting at the time was 3- 175W MH 14K + 4 - 39W Actinic. Temps were hard to control even with chiller and room AC. Energy bill hit $396 the worst month. That was ugly!!!

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa152/Amphibious_2007/DSC_0003-12.jpg

Now 2 1/2 years later, many changes have taken place. Some of the LR was removed to make room for fargs as corals grew. MHs were abolished along with their energy waste and exchanged for PFO's Solaris LEDs. this pic is with the latest version, I5, running at 100% lunar whites and blues. Was able to disconnect the chiller and remove the room AC. Ya gotta love going green. Energy bill now averages $240 per month.

One final thought. I deep clean (interpret disturb) my DSB in small areas every few weeks. It accomplishes a couple of things, first disturbing the sand deeply releases built up Nitrogen gas, second it raises clouds of mulm (for lack of a better word) that benefit corals, clams and other filter feeders and third, it redistributes small areas of sand, exchanging anaerobic with aerobic sand but more importantly (in my feeble mind) it corrects or even prevents the cementing of deep layers of sand so often reported with stagnant DSBs.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/sand.jpg

In my opinion, this has worked well. Recently, I started deep cleaning with a larger diameter gravel vacuum tube. Don't have picture of that yet. I'm really convinced that occasional deep cleaning of small areas is very beneficial to a DSB's long term health.

Dick

rroselavy
10-07-2008, 02:08 PM
V-

Here is a slice of my DSB after 11 months. I have not been churning it like Ampage. I try to keep the invert level high and blow the surface from time to time, but no deep-cleaning yet. I may try the siphon tube method Dick is talking about. I will try to get a full cross section pic for you to chew on.

http://homepage.mac.com/svanzo/.public/092808_pics/fungia.jpg

CarmieJo
10-07-2008, 09:13 PM
A few months ago Tom Wyatt spoke at my aquarium club. He goes further than disturbing a DSB, he advocates replacing sections of it on a rotating basis in order to prevent a buildup of nutrients in the sand itself.

V
10-07-2008, 10:39 PM
Carmie, did he mention what he did with the old sand?
& did he a basis for this his own experimentation or something else?

CarmieJo
10-07-2008, 11:38 PM
I think that he just tossed it.

brodie1516
10-08-2008, 08:42 AM
my dsb is about 5 months old should i start to do some disturbing? how long before things start to compact? and go bad

Amphibious
10-08-2008, 10:08 AM
I consider the one year mark a point to begin stirring the top layer. Especially if you have sand bed stirrers in the mix of clean up crew. If you have a device for deep stirring, a hard plastic tube, you can begin checking small areas using the method pictured above. You my not find any "cementing" going on at that point. What you want to do is prevent cementing in the future by deep cleaning small areas every so often.

Dick

brodie1516
10-08-2008, 08:52 PM
This is a great post, I had know idea about this cementing layer but it make sence.noob