Hi all: sorry if I have missed the answer to this question somewhere else . I am starting to set up a 180 gal mixed reef tank, this being said I have always used a fluval filter with bio balls, filter medium and carbon. Somewhere in the talking reef I heard Rob saying that bioballs are a no for a mixed reef? I would like to know what the difference is? I sure would not want to get off on the wrong track with this tank. Would appreciate if anyone could point me to the answer for this one. Thanks for takeing the time to respond. I don't do much posting but sure try to visit the forum often, great info. Thanks Dassystem1

thanks for the question, heres is the basic reasoning..

bio filtration media, whether bio-balls in a wet/dry, or bio media in a HOB filter wheel, canister filter or other type of filter are designed and are effective in reducing nitrites in your tank.

nitrites are very deadly to fish, so you would employ a unit like this to reduce them.
the problem is that the process in which nitrate is eliminated produces nitrates.
in a FO tank, this is not a huge deal as nitrates are not immediately dangerous to fish.
but in a reef tank, where you house a lot of inverts and coral, nitrates in even a small amount are a serious concern

in a reef tank its better to achieve a more well rounded filtration system using other natural methods such as LR, LS (in a DSB if you choose to do this), aggressive skimming, and such.

if you choose to employ a bio filter such as bioballs or such, you have to perform regular cleaning and care for the unit to prevent it from causing problems. and in most cases its may be more work than its worth

Hi Dassystem1,

I have never used bio-balls but here is what I understand. Bio-balls are fine for FO tanks. They build up aerobic bacteria that breaks NH4 to NO2 to NO3. There is not an anaerobic zone to process the NO3 to nitrogen gas so the NO3 just keeps building up. NO3 is not conducive to corals keeping corals.

eh thanks guys for the quick reply, sure appreciate it. This forum rocks! thanks again........das

eh thanks guys for the quick reply, sure appreciate it. This forum rocks! thanks again........das
did we cover the question sufficient?
any other questions about it?

Hello! Welcome to the boards!

Here is how I look at filtering a reef tank. You want your system to kinda mimic the ocean, right? So I try to filter my tank naturally with just Live Rock and a top of the line Skimmer. To me, it seems the majority of systems are setup this way.

I don't care for the idea of using carbon unless absolutely needed such as for soft coral competition. In new tanks, no need for it imo.

Natural, natural, natural is the only way to go for me! :)

I didn't really hit the initial question, but just say no to bio-balls.

Yep I think I get the general idea. I have been lead down the wrong road for a lengthy time I understand now. I have learned a lot the hard way and many dollars later. I am not exactly new to the hobby as I have tried to maintain a mixed 60 gal tank for 5-6 yrs. Thats maybe not a long time, but I am still learning everyday, but I assume that there are many others as well. Its a shame I have lost literally thousands of dollars over the years because of lack of knowledge and misinformation by some LFS. Not only the bucks but the misfortune of corals and fish. But I am doing much more research on my own and not always jumping to first minute decisions anymore. Well enough of my miserable history and I look forward to a better future with you guys. I am always looking at your discussions even though I post infrequently. Das

Glad you are here Das. It's very hard to think of naturally filtering your tank especially if you have done it one way for so long or either made the jump into saltwater from freshwater. Just so hard to think of filtering in any other way, other then with lots of equipment added to your system.

How to run a reef tank changes so much and it's a lot to keep up. There are so many unknowns, but I think we now know that live rock and a skimmer is the best way to filter, to the best of our knowledge. We just need to teach all the LFS's that.

We look forward to seeing lots of success with your new system. We'd love to see you post a tank thread journal on this big tank and watch the setup! Talk to you soon.

I am running two tanks without bio balls. I have a 55g long with a sump and a skimmer and a power head for flow, and I have a 39g Cube which has a hang on skimmer and a big power head for flow.

My 55g had been set up with the typical wet dry and skimmer for 2 years. I was constantly battling green algae on the glass. I was not able to get my nitrates to zero. I had a lion, maroon clown, wolf eel, and a tang.first I removed all the large fish and went to more of a reef set up to get the algae under control. No luck. Even with all the fish gone there was still mad algae groth on the glass. I let it run for a month and I never noticed a change. So after looking into the crazy idea I decided what the hell, so I removed the bio balls over a period of three weeks. I noticed the algae on the glass went from green to red after a significant portion of the balls were removed. Eventually I removed all the balls and shortly there after the algae stopped growing on the glass. The tank has about 90 lb of live rock and many macro algae. The water is now perfect, even after stocking with 5 reef fish.

The 39g cube was a fresh set up. I started in up about two months ago. It was started with no sump. I have a hang on skimmer, 60 lb of live rock and a power head. I have not seen much algae growth at all in this set up. The water parameters are perfect.

Im sold on the idea. Thanks Rob. I now tell my friends to forget the wet dry, and spend the cash on as much live rock as you can.
VHO Light+Live Rock+Skimmer+Power Head-Wetdry=Perfict Marine Tank.

if u run an inline de-nitrification chamber after the bio-ball (never been a fan of buying plastic, prefer coral rubble) media soak can be employed in a marine tank, granted FO is the norm, but a reef tank can be achieved if u can deal with the nitate problem. i have seen many examples of this practice still in use on a very large scale!
So if ur commited to the practise & really want to use them u can make a D-nitro chamber, but flow rates dictate success, u can swing in ether court if its not calculated correctly on volume vs flow rate. >>>to fast, nitrites prevail & fail to convert, to slow u produce H2S (hydrogen sulphide) kinda deadly smelling rotten gas smell under 50ppm, but at 50-100ppm, its stops the nose from smelling. 300ppm is considered a high dose,>> 600ppm & this is the kicker here>>> is considered a toxic dose,which drops u to your knee's, which insidently is where the gas thats been leaking resides, cause its heaver that oxygen. thus unless u still have the wits about u to escape the fumes u cant smell anymore, ur cactus! it closely resembles the toxicity of cyanide, so yeah, just to add & re-enforce this discussion id proberly run it without them....lol, cause to massage out the possitives of this outdated system can be dangerous to your health!:o

one extra question about bio-balls, did everyone use filter material that needed change out every couple days before the balls?

one extra question about bio-balls, did everyone use filter material that needed change out every couple days before the balls?
if you are talking about prefilter pad, yes. but i can't think of any other media. does anyone remember DLS rolls?

I also use a carbon sock in my over flow box. I can see when it needs to be changed; the water turns a yellowish color and it looks like my lights need to be changed(dimming). when I change the carbon the water clears up in a few hours, i mean it becomes crystal clear. and I run a pre filter pad in my sump. The sump is only there to support the skimmer. on my cube i have a hang on skimmer and it has a filter pad in the bubble dissipater.

unfortunatly DAS sometimes people in general, not just the LFS can give wrong advice, almost everyone came from the fresh water days at some point,& some things are just harder to let go of that others! this is the nature of everything. Ask, research, plonder, & your one step closer to success!

Hi guys: Just to clarify something here. You talk about a wet dry filter. But what about the external canister filter which runs the water through the unit and bio balls or other material for that matter and returns it to the tank? Does this constitute a Nitrate factory as well? Or are we just talking about a wet dry system? There is no air in this type of filter so I am just assumeing that this type of filter would be different? Sorry for the complete lack of knowledge of "wet dry" filters although I believe I do understand the basic concept now. Would appreciate just a bit more clarification of the actual construction of a unit that would classify it as produceing excess nitrate. Thanks again for all help, appreciate it. Das

your quote"what about the external canister filter which runs the water through the unit and bio balls or other material for that matter and returns it to the tank? Does this constitute a Nitrate factory as well? "

if u dont clean it out often it can. but they dont transfer much air though the units, so its not the same as a trickle.


http://www.tropicalfishstore.com/filtration.htm
http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/reptile/filter.htm
http://www.koiclay.com/diy/pg5.htm


http://fins.actwin.com/plans/trickle.gif

this should give u an idea anyways!
i'll post these in wave RB if u feel the need to add them. great links, just dont hold much weight with me!

your quote"what about the external canister filter which runs the water through the unit and bio balls or other material for that matter and returns it to the tank? Does this constitute a Nitrate factory as well? "

if u dont clean it out often it can. but they dont transfer much air though the units, so its not the same as a trickle.


http://www.tropicalfishstore.com/filtration.htm
http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/reptile/filter.htm
http://www.koiclay.com/diy/pg5.htm


http://fins.actwin.com/plans/trickle.gif

this should give u an idea anyways!
i'll post these in wave RB if u feel the need to add them. great links, just dont hold much weight with me!
unless your are using eheim WET/DRY canister.

true,totally forgot they made this canister filter.! thats blub!

The point is YOU NEED NOTHING MORE THAN LIVE ROCK AND HIGH FLOW IN YOUR TANK. Why complicate things. Keep it as simple as possible.

I think I am getting the message! I will try to revamp the sump I have already purchased and remove the bio-balls and take the advise of Rob and the rest of you guys and go natural as much as possible. Thanks again......Dass

Any new feelings on this topic. I had a mad out break of green hair that I contracted from an LFS(i think) I had to kill the lights for over 6 months to get the algae under control. All my light lovers are now dead but the algae has gone to zero. I’m restarting the reef soon and I’m wondering about others long term out comes with this method.

I believe the prevailing opinion is still that anything that traps detritus is going to produce a lot of nitrates.

If your reef has been inactive for that long, i believe I would do a series of large waterchanges before you fire the lights back up. i assume the tank has been running normaly otherwise? The algae (and anything else) that ded off, would have release a larrge amount of nutrients into the water, and it's entirely likely the algae will come right back when the lights come back on. Probably not a bad idea to blow off your rocks real well with a powerhead or turkey baster, and run some carbon, poly pads, purigen etc to make sure the water is as clean as poissible when you restart.

I believe the prevailing opinion is still that anything that traps detritus is going to produce a lot of nitrates.

If your reef has been inactive for that long, i believe I would do a series of large waterchanges before you fire the lights back up. i assume the tank has been running normaly otherwise? The algae (and anything else) that ded off, would have release a larrge amount of nutrients into the water, and it's entirely likely the algae will come right back when the lights come back on. Probably not a bad idea to blow off your rocks real well with a powerhead or turkey baster, and run some carbon, poly pads, purigen etc to make sure the water is as clean as poissible when you restart.

I have still been doing regular water changes, and I have a skimmer that has been working hard to collect all the organic matter. I plan to do a 80% water change shortly before i start populating the tank again with a few weeks in-between the change and adding algae eaters first. I was also going to stack more base rock on top of the rocks that had the algae to permanently block out light. Thnaks for the info.

What about the refugium approach as apposed to the "bio ball wet/dry" setup?

Just curious as to what you all have experienced with this method (in addition to live rock + skimmer).

I have my own personal experience/opinions on this, but would love to hear the forums response.


Thanks in advance...

I am a big proponent of refugiums.You can read all about it by clicking on my tank journal link below my signature but the short story is that I have a corner tank and space in the stand is limited. I have an old wet/dry that I use for a sump. On the left side in the chamber that would have contained the bio-balls I grow caulerpa. I have chunks of LR under that. On the right side I have my skimmer and return pumps and my unique 2L pop bottle/cheato skimmer micro-bubble trap. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/CarmieJo/DSC_9858.jpg

I believe that fuges offer myriad benefits, nutrient uptank, food farm, nursery, etc, and recommend one if at all possible. Even if it is a unique 2L pop bottle/cheato micro-bubble trap!

shhhhhh I still have balls...

Ive had them since the initial setup over 2 yrs ago. When all of my research (at that time) couldnt give me a definitive answer, I removed half of them about a year ago. I have a 10 gl 'box' (Im stil not sure if I should call it a sump, wet dry. trickle) I have a stack of filter media (blue /white pads) that the water runs over before getting to the chamber where the balls are. I have SOME rubble, basically extra stuff that I throw in, then my cheap skimmer. I clean the pile of pads every week, and change when necessary. I dont have nitrates, but maybe thats because the pads collect all of the junk first. I have wanted to get rid of them mainly to free up the space for something else, more rubble, macro, fuge...

[SIZE="5"] I dont have nitrates, but maybe thats because the pads collect all of the junk first

Bingo! And you clean them.

Hey Laura,

#1) What Pearson said!^^^
#2) Presuming you have enough LR (55+ lbs) if you want to remove the bio-balls you can. I'd suggest that you take out about 25% of them a week.
#3) I have a converted wet/dry but I call it a sump. :)

Thanks for the updates!